How the “I am a worm”/total depravity theology hurts children

When you believe that you are a vile, filthy piece of scum and that you are unworthy of God's love, could this perhaps transfer to how you view your children? And to how you discipline them?

In my fundamentalist upbringing, children were viewed as little more than wretched sinners who must be spanked into submission. And although we would have certainly protested against that characterization, our actions proved otherwise.

Our perspective of "child-training" ran very similar to the systematic chastisement espoused by Michael & Debi Pearl. Thankfully, none of our "training sessions" ever ended in death or hospitalization.

But many of us often went around with bruised behinds. And in my case, a kind of chronic heartache. It was like always living in a parched state, nearly dying of thirst for love. My husband says I was so needy when he first met me and that I required copious amounts of attention and affirmation.

In fact, it wasn't until our 7th wedding anniversary that I finally started believing he loved me.

Of course, there were many reasons for this but one of them was that, as a child, I'd been trained and programed quite systematically. It was a form of mental conditioning that was often achieved through corporeal punishment.

Sometimes I wonder what motivated such harsh discipline. Was part of it the rigorous meeting schedule that required all children to sit through 5 hours of meetings on Sundays? I mean, how else do you get a 2 year old to sit quietly through 5 hours of meeting? Lots of spankings, of course.

But I wonder if the other part, the part that gets to the deeper root of why there was so much harsh discipline was due to our deeply ingrained assumptions about who we were. We believed in the inherent evil of all humans.

Isn't it easier to repeatedly spank your child when you believe she's inherently evil? In our group, parents started spanking their babies when they were around 6 months old because this was when babies started trying to "manipulate" their parents by exerting their "rebellious will." 

Looking back, it seems blindingly obvious that spanking a 6 month old is ridiculously abusive. But that's the power of peer pressure. When all the parents are attending the same meetings and reading the same "child-training" books, there arises a definitively creepy ability to quash the natural protective, parental instincts.

Suddenly, your greatest concern is not your child's best interest but how you appear to the group. You don't want to look like the lazy, bad parent who doesn't have "control" of her child. So, it becomes easier and easier to tell yourself that you're spanking your child for "his/her own good."

And when you truly believe that you, yourself are unworthy of God's love that you, yourself are a wicked, vile, piece of scum…well….the unflagging certainty of your belief motivates you to discipline your child likewise–to save his/her soul from Hell, of course.

I realize that my experience in fundamentalism is the extreme exception. However, the idea of total depravity and/or inherent human wickedness is prevalent through out many modern Christian churches. And I often wonder if any of them pause to examine how this belief affects the way they view their children.

Some people say that my experience has clouded my objectivity and has rendered me incapable of understanding these doctrines. I get emails and comments from folks saying that my past is preventing me from seeing clearly.

In fact, when I wrote about the horrific abusive "child-training" practice of Michael and Debi Pearl, I got all kinds of emails from people asserting that I was simply reacting negatively as a result of my own bad experience. 

Also, they argued, they had used the Pearls' methods and it had worked for them! They had reared wonderful, awesome, God-fearing servants of the Lord!

Perhaps there's a measure of truth to the idea that my bad experience affects my ability to approach these topics in an unbiased way. I guess when you've suffered actual trauma as a result of aberrant religious belief you do become a tad allergic to, say, "proof texts" being pulled out of context to supposedly prove that a child ought to be "beaten with rods" to save her soul from Hell.

Still, even with my allergic reaction to proof texts, the dismissive attitudes towards my ability to think through these issues strikes me as flat-out patronization. 

Yes, my experience was extreme but I think it's actually enabled me to identify some of the root errors that led to the inevitable craziness and abuse. 

Which is to say, when you believe in total depravity, is it entirely out of the realm of possibility to suggest that this belief can lead to abusive discipline of children? I'd say it's entirely plausible, actually. 

In fact, I may go so far as to suggest that it's one of the primary motivating factors.

To sum up, I really enjoyed one of the last comments to my post about the inherent nature of humans. I agree with Aimee that my mothering heart is being healed, too. Here's what Aimee wrote: 

The only thing that I wanted to say is I know that having been brainwashed with "people inherently evil" mindset, it really affects our view of children. I have been in Christian parenting circles that dehumanize children and always look at them through that lens of "they are evil…they are manipulating you"…and these people can't/don't truly enjoy their kids when they view them as evil! (And truthfully, I still struggle with not viewing my own children this way, b/c teaching like this runs deep) I started believing a few years ago that we are a mixture of both with propensity for both…it not only gave me a love/compassion/grace for my fellow man and made me feel "one with humanity", but also it healed my mothering heart in many ways.

What do you think? Does belief in the inherent wickedness of children 
 make parents more susceptible to abusive disciplinary practices?

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  • http://nomoredegrees.blogspot.com Happy Geek

    I can only speak from my experience. I was raised to believe in the inherant sinfulness of man, but I was also taught of the great love the Father had for his children. Therefore when I think of my sinfulness, it isn’t to berate myself, but rather gratitude to Saviour who intervened in my behalf.
    Because of the emphasis on love that overcomes sin, my parents were able to discipline out of love for me and desire to see me achieve my full potential, rather than fear of disapproval from the group. I only hope that I do half as good of a job.

  • http://thebrogles.blogspot.com Andrea

    As a woman who attends a calvinist, reformed thinking church and as someone who deeply believes in total depravity, I’m saddened to see how warped and twisted the issue can get. I think if parents truly believed the Gospel and understood how to treat those who are not saved, they would see that the Lord calls us to LOVE them not punish them. So, yes because of the world we live in I can see how it would be twisted. That being said, total depravity illustrates that a person is totally rebellious against God, everything he does is sin, man is unable to do good or submit to God, and our rebellion is deserving of eternal punishment. This is true of all of us before the Lord calls us to Himself. That being said, we don’t treat people with harsh punishment, beat children, or tell them they are bad. Instead we get on our knees for children, expose the charachter of God to them, show them love and care, just as our Father loves and cares for us.

    That’s my thought.

  • http://musingsofacatholiclady.blogspot.com Michelle aka Catholic Lady

    I’m not sure. I have always been taught that God created humans in His image and our children are little Images of God entrusted to our care to bring them up and teach them the Faith. I will say, that I believe my children teach me way more about love than anything I have experienced before children. Reading all these posts of yours on this (and other) subjects…well, it really makes me eternally grateful for my Catholic Christian faith.

  • KatR

    In my former church, I don’t know if it was a belief that children were inherently wicked, it was more a belief that a “rebellious” child was a reflection on the parent’s spirituality and closeness to God, so there was tremendous pressure that way to bring your kids “in line”.

    One thing that bothers me to this day is that all of the kids were taught that they had to be friendly and give hugs to everyone, even if they didn’t want to. I can think of more than one instance when a kid was taken away and spanked because he didn’t give someone a hug. You couldn’t have come up with a better set up for kids to be vulnerable to a sexual predator, than to teach them that they have to give unquestioned physical affection to every adult they are around.

  • http://lauriemo.blogspot.com laurie

    I’ve been thinking about this very thing a lot lately. I find a strange tension exists between the biblical teaching of the fallen nature of man and the also biblical teaching of man as image bearer of God. It is the fact that man is created in the image of God which makes murder (Gen. 9:6)different from slaughtering an animal, and which also makes us oppose abortion.

    The fact that every one of us is a person created in the image of God (though fallen) should lead us to treat every human in existence with a measure of dignity. In answer to your question, I’ve often found that constant harsh self-examination, and self-judgmentalism leads to similar judgment of others, adults and children alike: “I’m a rotten sinner and I know it. The Bible says we’re all sinners, that means you’re rotten too.” There is no way this attitude cannot affect the way we think about others and treat them. (BTW, I find this attitude of constant conviction and soul nit-picking strangely missing in the writings of the apostles.)

    We all know that one of the signs that we really love someone is our tendency to always think to best of them, to put the best possible construction on their behaviors. We don’t like to suspect their motives are evil and will need some pretty good proof to arrive at such a conclusion. Beyond that, we also know that only God can see a person’s heart and motives. It’s hard enough to evaluate our own motives. How then can we judge another’s? The Scripture tells us that love covers a multitude of sins. Christ’s love has covered my sin and is sufficient to cover the sin of everyone I meet. It is that very love with which I should be approaching my children and everyone else.

    Ultimately the perfect law of love is that we love the Lord with all that is in us, and our neighbor (children included) AS OURSELVES. Would you wish to be treated the way you treat your children? Would you want God to treat you the way you treat your children? I mean, really, these folks who expect instant joyful obedience from their children must think themselves better parents than Father God, Whose own children do not obey perfectly and yet He loves them so much as to suffer and die to make up for their disobedience. “He has NOT dealt with us according to our sins” – thank God He has not! (Ps. 103:8-10) If He were not full of mercy, I would have no hope – none of us would.

  • http://ginagsmith.com gina

    Grace grace grace grace grace grace grace. We have to parent with grace. Of course children are sinners. We all are. But we’ve been given so much mercy and so much grace from God. How else will they understand grace if we don’t model it for them? I think the happy geek is right on.

  • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

    I’ve never felt the need or desire to be “unbiased” when it comes to the ways kids are treated. Beyond that, I can’t think of much else I want to say. I certainly have little new to say about this brand of theology. I absolutely understand it and find it utterly repellent. I don’t really care if it’s “right” or not as it describes a God I would never, ever worship.

  • Cathy

    What makes us “worthy” of God’s love? You wrote the same thing in the post about being inherently evil, and I wondered then.

    I also adhere to Reformed Theology, so my question would be “Why would God save me in the first place?” I am “worthy” because of who I am in Christ, not because of any good in me. I am His child because of His work on the cross.

    I’m not asking to stir up controversy…just wondering what you mean.

    Your pal in No CA (where it has been a hot steamy day–of course, my husband is always hot and steamy, but that’s for another post),

    Cathy

  • Matthew Rowe

    You still equate that one must be worthy of God’s love in order to receive it. But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet… good enough? Not in dire need? Deserving? No. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us*. Wretched sinners. I’d like an answer as well (like Cathy) as to why you think you’re “worthy” of God’s love. Either in what you’ve done, or something else.

    It also seems you equate, unfairly, that anyone who believes in total depravity thinks all children deserve beatings.

    I understand that in your past you were abused with the doctrine of total depravity. If the doctrine of total depravity was a rod, your church abusively used it to harm your soul. But that’s not how it’s meant to be used. It’s meant to gently lead us to Jesus as our greatest joy. His work on the cross. His love for us. His undeserved love at that. And now you’re blanketing it with criticism because you were abused with it in a way it was never meant to be used.

    For example, “In my fundamentalist upbringing, children were viewed as little more than wretched sinners who must be spanked into submission.” I don’t see a linear relationship between seeing children as sinners and because of that, not valuing them and needing to constantly spank them into submission. What about seeing the need for mercy and grace, as Happy Geek has said earlier? What about seeing life as a gift from God and seeing them as beautiful wonderful creations**? I think your overgeneralization is unfair and biased by your hurts.

    I do have some questions, the first one is somewhat along the lines of something I asked in your earlier post about inherent evil (What have your children done to deserve your love?): when you finally started to believe your husband loved you, was it because you finally believed yourself a good, lovable, and generally acceptable person, or did you finally trust that he loved you? That what he was saying was true?

    That’s how it is with God and I. I don’t believe God loves me because I find myself lovable, but because I finally believe that he loves me in spite of who I am. That I don’t love him like I should. That “this is love, not that we have loved God” i.e. not that I’ve “gotten it right” and been found worthy, but “that God has loved us.” In Jesus.

    Even you yourself allude to a perverse root, different than merely a “total depravity” theology, when you say, “Suddenly, your greatest concern is not your child’s best interest but how you appear to the group.” Yikes. That’s idolatry at the cost of your child’s emotional, physical, and spiritual well being. That’s taking the rod of total depravity and beating children with it in the service of people pleasing, not using it to gently guide them to Jesus for all their satisfaction in the name of real Godly parenting.

    Again, I think it’s an unfair overgeneralization stemming from your personal experience when you say, “the unflagging certainty of your belief motivates you to discipline your child likewise… to save his/her soul from Hell,” since not every person who believes in total depravity will manifest it like this. Christ is the way out of Hell. Not beatings.

    I hurt for your past’s effect on you. I get it. I know what a perverse religious upbringing can do. I deal with it every day. Thanks for your honesty. It’s great. Really.

    * Romans 6:26
    ** Psalm 139

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    OK, maybe my word choice is causing some confusion.

    Would it help if I said: “God sees me as lovable”? Because maybe that hits closer to what I’m trying to say.

    Why would God save you? Because you are worth saving! If you weren’t worth saving, why would Jesus give Himself? You were worth His blood. Obviously, there was something worth saving. I just don’t get this “why would God save me?” It seems like false modesty.

    But maybe I’m confusing/mixing up terms. And also consider that I don’t adhere to Reformed doctrine and I do have a total negative reaction to anything smacking of Calvinism.

    Thanks for chiming in, Cathy! I’ve been wondering what you’ve been up to—I mean, other than swooning over your hot hubby, that is. :)

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    I think I clarified some of my thoughts in response to Cathy’s comments (see above).

    Answers to questions:
    1. Yes, I finally believed he loved me because I trusted that what he said was true. Nothing in me changed.
    2. But isn’t this what also debunks “total depravity”? I mean, if God loves us with an everlasting love, how could He see us as anything BUT lovable? And yes, Christ died while we were yet sinning. So, doesn’t this mean that He loved us even before we loved Him–which would mean He doesn’t see us as totally depraved, vile wretches, etc. Yes, we need Him, yes the image of God in us has been marred by sin–but He doesn’t see us as evil.
    3. Yes, I love my children because…they are my children. But they are lovable because they exist. I mean, honestly, this whole idea of total depravity repulses me (like Scott M. mentioned above) because if this is what God is, I would never be able to worship Him. Well said, Scott!

    Hope I’m making sense here. Just sorta rambling….. :)

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Laurie: such a GREAT point. When we expect absolute, joyful, immediate obedience from our children, we are forgetting how often God has to forebear with us. Sometimes I wonder if the parents who use Michael Pearl’s methods would like for God to deal with them in the same way. YIKES. I honestly just shivered! God have mercy on us all!

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Yep. Seen that, too. Dude, Kat. Sometimes I think we went to the same church! :)

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    I wish I had been taught that way. :) Thank you for sharing, Michelle. You must be an absolutely wonderful mother. I’m working on it and I’m making progress. But boy oh boy, it requires effort, yes?

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Andrea: I’m sorry (and please don’t take this disrespectfully, I am genuinely baffled) but your comment truly stuns me.

    EVERYTHING a human does is sin? Man/woman is unable to submit to God and yet, we are still deserving of eternal punishment? For what? For not doing what we cannot do? This makes no sense.

    Or maybe I’m totally misunderstanding total depravity. Wouldn’t be the first time I misunderstood this stuff! :)

    However, we both agree that we should never treat people harshly. So, phew! Not all is lost! :)

    Can you tell I’m not a Calvinist? Dude. That guy makes me break out in hives! :)

  • Cathy

    I just asked that incredibly sexy husband (you know the hot, steamy one) when he was going to bed, and he said that he was following me. Therefore, this will be my last comment–tonight, anyway.

    I know that you’re not Reformed (I used the word “also” because another commenter {is that a word?} stated that she was a Calvinist).

    God sees believers as justified–after conversion.

    I am content to know that I am capable of any sin, and that before Christ, I was “without hope, and without God in this world (Ephesians 2:12), and that I was an enemy of the cross. BUT, now, He calls me His friend, and I have been “brought near by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:13).” I can only offer my gratitude to a God who is w/out parallel, and who loves me IN SPITE of my sin.

    To echo the chorus to the hymn that we sang in church today (and one that I’ve been singing all day),

    “Hallelujah! What a Savior.”

    Cathy

  • http://sarahjoyalbrecht.com Sarah Joy Albrecht

    As someone who switched from Arminianism to Calvinism, I understand both sides of the theological argument.

    Obviously, I believe that people are depraved and that scripture supports this. I’m not here to stir up an argument over theology.

    However, I think it is a gross abuse when people focus on depravity in such a way that they omit grace and love… and who will spank a 2 year old into silence over the course of a five hour service.

    If the constant focus is on guilt and sin, it is as if we say, “Jesus’ work on the cross wasn’t good enough for me!”

    I have always found it comforting/awesome/interesting the example that Christ set of grace, especially with the woman who was to be lawfully stoned for her sin – recorded in John 8. He never denied her sin, but he did not give her the full-brute force punishment that she deserved. Can’t take one story out of context and use it as a norm, but I do think it says a lot about Christ’s character, tenderness, and forgiveness.

    On the other hand, we cannot swing to the extreme opposite side that children (and adults!) are sinless and that everyone will be in heaven because all gods are the same… many paths to heaven. Such thoughts are just as dangerous. 1 John 1:8-10 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

    So… my encouragement is to stay in the Word, to cling to Christ and love your children :)

    I have left abusive churches before, FWIW.

    The book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse was a big help, even while I was recovering from being in the church. “Yes! This is exactly how I felt!” helped me to think through the patterns, to understand what had hit me, and to pinpoint why I was still suffering… so that I could forgive… and know how to avoid the same kind of situation again.

    Much love,
    Sarah

    Twitter @mrsalbrecht

  • Nicole

    Ok, just some things I think need to be clarified.

    Depravity: The idea that people are born corrupt (which is different from evil), have a heavy tendency towards selfishness and bad things, and is unable to save themselves/choose God.

    Westminster Confession: III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

    Worth vs. worthy: We all have worth based on the fact that we are made in the image of God. Worthy implies merit-based honor. So I am not worthy of God’s love because of my continual sin but I have worth as the result of created by God in His image.

    Children are definitely sinners, just like every adult here is a sinner. The idea becomes abusive when coupled with the beliefs that sin can be beat out of them (Pearl) and that obedience must be immediate and joyful. In other words, “children as sinners” will become abusive when the parenting becomes something akin to salvation (also a Pearl idea).

    P.S. Pearl is an extreme Arminian.

  • http://acts17verse28.blogspot.com NCSue

    I can’t help but believe you’re right, and that an overbalanced sense of man-is-evil can lead to abuse… abuse by parents, spousal abuse, and self-neglect or abuse.

    Why do we forget the beautiful message of Psalm 139? God knew us before we were conceived. He knew in advance every evil act we would ever commit, and he still thought we were worth creating. He had a plan for our lives, and thought our lives were somehow important to his plans.

  • http://thebrogles.blogspot.com Andrea

    Sorry Elizabeth! Definitely agree with you that we should treat everyone in love, not only children. But also agree that we should love children all the more and if they need consequences as we all do, to do it full of grace and love and speak truth to them with explanation through all of it.

    Here’s one good resource that explains total depravity…it’s not for everyone, to each their own:)

    http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/depravity.html

  • http://deepwatersbubblingbrook.wordpress.com Melissa

    When you focus on the depravity, without acknowledging God’s Sovereignty and His amazing grace in the very next breath, then I agree with you. But if held in proper perspective, it allows one to most effectively discipline their children.

    My children are wicked, depraved little people, just like their mama is a wicked big person. BUT GOD, rich in His mercy, offers grace and forgiveness. Knowing their wickedness, I do not have to be surprised when they act on their sinfulness and do sinful things. Knowing their depraved heart, I do not have to get frustrated and ask, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? (although I do sometimes still ask that when I lose sight of God), because I already know.

    I also know that while I am called to teach them, train them and discipline them, I can never create change in them. I am to faithfully parent them, and trust God to change their hearts.

    Holding to total depravity, while failing to recognize God’s Sovereignty over salvation, I can see how a parent could fall into abuse, thinking THEY need to change their child.

    I think it actually helps the child, when rightly presented. When they know that they themselves can never be good, it’s freeing, just like it is for me. I often have this conversation during discipline sessions. for example: ‘you hit your brother. was that kind or loving? does it please God when you do that? Why do you do mean things? Your heart is wicked, just like mama’s, and we don’t want to do kind things. we want to be mean and selfish, it is hard to be kind and loving. but Jesus can change our hearts so that we want to do good and please Him. etc.

    very abbreviated, but I think it makes the point.

    I remember as a kid doing some really mean things to siblings, with no idea why. I now know why. And I know the remedy for it. My kids will do bad things all through life because of their sinful hearts, but they know why they are prone to that, and they know the remedy, and they know that in Christ, He can forgive them, and change their hearts so that their natural tendency is no longer toward sin, but toward righteous deeds.

    Both sides need to be kept in view…our sinfulness, AND God’s kindness, love and mercy.

  • http://mecerone.blogspot.com Mary Beth

    Elizabeth,

    Another Calvinist here. But it took me a good 5 years of thinking through the issue to come to that conclusion, and while I believe it whole heartedly – see last paragraph- I have two thoughts.

    One, that I can completely understand how total depravity could lead towards the sort of action that you are describing here. The whole point (to me) of total depravity is that we are ALL EQUALLY depraved and therefore you shouldn’t look down on others (or spank 6 months for doing what they can’t help but do.)

    But two, the things you have encountered, aside from breaking my heart, have shaped you. The same way my upbringing did – some for good, some for bad. And while I do not always agree with you theologically, I think that you are one of the most thoughtful individuals, especially with respect to theology that I have ever met. Keep thinking, and keep searching, as we all ought to do.

    When I say I am a Calvinist, what I mean is, currently in my search for understanding God more to worship him better, I believe that scripture teaches the points that are known as the 5 points of Calvinism. What I don’t mean (and I hope no one does, on any side of the issue!) is that I’ve made up my mind and that I won’t continue to sort through this stuff so that I can understand God a little better and worship him a little more today.

  • http://thebrogles.blogspot.com andrea

    Mary Beth,

    I wholeheartedly believe with you on every point you’ve made.

    Elizabeth you are an amazing women and what God is doing in your heart in response to where you’ve come from, is a miracle in which we can all rejoice. Praise God!

  • http://bellwhistlemoon.blogspot.com/ mary bailey

    I haven’t read all the comments and I must admit that when I read the title of your post I rolled my eyes and thought, “Not that same old stuff again.” But I did read the first few comments and something clicked with me, that I totally get what you are saying now. God doesn’t just love us because who we are in Christ—God loved us before Christ died for us—That is the whole reason He sent His son to die. Now if you’re talking about being holy and being able to stand in God’s presence, we cannot do that apart from Christ, whose shed blood has made us clean enough to stand before God who not only LOVES but is HOLY. The fact that we are sinful does not take away from the fact that He loved us first and He loves us anyway!

    Glad I gave this post a chance. I’ll go back and read everyone’s comments later. Kudos to you for “talking” out everything you’re thinking about. You’re really doing an important work here on your blog, not just for yourself, but for others, too. Blessings to you!

  • http://www.havingleftthealtar.com/ Katherine

    I was raised that the belief that human beings were created good, bear the image of God but, because of the fall, have natural propensity to sin. I have struggled to believe God loves me because I’ve seen myself as unlovable – I’ve been working on that. That hasn’t effected my parenting too much though because my goal as a mother has always been just to do my best to love my children the best I could. I’ve “spanked” with my hand through diapers or clothes but don’t believe in the punishments your article mentions. God has never treated us that way so I have a hard time understanding how anyone could justify treating their children that way.

    One thing that jumped out at me from your post was the idea that infants and young children could be culpable, and therefore punishable for sin. In Catholic theology, a person is culpable for a sin when the person 1) recognizes it is wrong and 2) consents to do it anyway. Young children often don’t know something is wrong and, even when you’ve told them not to do something, they often don’t reflect and recognize it is wrong. They most often lack the culpability for the wrong they do. That is why Bar Mitzvahs and First Communions are not done until an older age when the children gain that reason to act more responsibly. Yes, everyone is born in original sin, but none of us are born culpable for that which we cannot help.

    Would the parents who do such things to their children have spanked Jesus for not hugging a Pharisee? Such a mentality also suggests that the parent is ALWAYS right. I know I am not always right. Sometimes my children educate me. It seems to me to take a great deal of pride to spank for not giving hugs. It also seems to undermine the dignity of their children as unique human beings made in the image of God. Again, if Jesus didn’t finish his dinner, would Mary have spanked Him? Mary hitting Jesus? Boy that is not something I can even imagine. How about Jesus spanking children? I can’t imagine that one either.

    We are the first and greatest witnesses to our children of God’s love for them. If they think God is angry at them for such simple things as not eating when they are not hungry or not hugging someone who frightens them, how will they ever see God as a loving Father? Certainly God chastises those He loves, but always with patience, gentleness and a loving hand.

    I’m afraid I have rambled, but my three little ones keep interrupting this comment.

  • KatR

    You know, one of the best moments I had was when I realized that my former church, that set itself up as so holy, and so special, and so chosen by God, was just a run of the mill Bible cult. Some of the theology was different, but we were all dating the same jerk with a bad wig.

  • http://www.smoochagator.com Smoochagator

    “Also, they argued, they had used the Pearls’ methods and it had worked for them! They had reared wonderful, awesome, God-fearing servants of the Lord!”

    When in comes to toeing the line between discipline and child abuse, the ends do NOT justify the means. You can raise a wonderful, awesome, God-fearing servant of the Lord without abusing him or her.

  • Cathy

    This will be short because the treadmill is calling my name. “Oh, be quiet!”

    I believe that God loves the whole world in a general sense. He also calls all men to repent. As humans, we can love in the general sense as well. A statement like, “I love theme parks (my daughter who is graduating from junior high is at Great America today on a school trip, hence, the reason for that example),” doesn’t necessarily mean that I love ALL theme parks, but in general, find them enjoyable. The Bible says that God causes rain to fall on the just and unjust. He exercises common grace on all He has made, but it’s because HE’S good.

    Does election exist, or not? Does God choose, or not? My finite mind cannot grasp the ways of God, but my role isn’t to explain it, my role is to trust Him, because He’s not confused by any of it.

    Like Mary Beth, I have thought through this stuff for years. However, I know that there will be non Calvinists in Heaven w/whom I will worship Jesus, and that’s an awesome thought, i.e., that millions will be singing songs of praise to our God, and casting our crowns at His feet. We have the same blood coursing through our veins, after all. I continue to explore my faith, and continue to think through issues in order to cement what I believe and why. When I’ve thought long enough, though, I just have to move forward and trust God’s character, even though I certainly can’t explain God’s sovereignty and man’s culpability completely.

    Finally, if there is anyone who should depart the faith, it is my brother, sister and me. Without going into the horrific details of life w/my dad (he died on April 30), suffice it to say that my brother and I have often discussed why it is that we even have a walk w/God. My dad was a pastor, no less, and (I’m hesitant to say what else)…let me just sum it up by saying that what he did should have landed him in prison. It was, however, a different era, and we were pretty secretive. Aside from that, he was a gambler, and had a violent temper, and we often fled the house in terror. This is not hyperbole (in the slightest). We were raised not to drink (I still don’t, but it’s not because it’s a sin issue anymore…), to go to movies dance, wear short skirts, guys couldn’t wear long hair (I was just reflecting on that last night, and chuckled that my husband and I have NEVER, ever told our boys to cut their hair), etc. You get the picture. BUT, this is where I would take a divergent path than you, Elizabeth. My experience cannot be a reference point for what the Bible says. Life experiences are hard to shake, certainly, but I MUST look to Jesus, and what the Bible actually says, and start from that perspective. If I use my experiences as the reference point, then to heck w/Christianity, and anything that looks like Christianity, or religion, for that matter.

    It to God’s glory–alone–that my siblings and I are still walking w/God. HE is the one who does the work in the heart. For that, I am grateful. I used to struggle w/bitterness, and hatred, and while those sins haven’t completely dissipated, I can say that I have forgiven, and I can, like Paul, “press on,” and not keep looking over my shoulder. I can’t allow my dad (and I did mourn his death) to rent space in my head anymore. It is to no one’s benefit, mine included.

    NOW, off to the Gulag, er, garage, to run the contraption that’s supposed to be good for me!

    Cathy

    PS I proofed this mess, but it is horribly written, and I haven’t the time or patience to clean it up. As it turns out, it’s not so “short,” after all. The weather is heating up, and unless I want to get heat stroke, I need to get off of the computer, and onto the treadmill.

  • Debbie

    I hesitate to comment here for my lack of eloquence and theological aptitude but this is a subject that God has been working on in my heart the last several years so I’ll give it a try while my two little ones distract me.

    I grew up on the very free-will sort of Christianity and that, when taken to extremes does great damage to a person’s faith since it diminishes the apparent sovereignty of God and can easily make a person prideful since much of our salvation is in our own hands and there’s a mentality that we are so much better than those other people. (very similar to the way pharisees are portrayed). That can lead to VERY unkind treatment of other people, racism, classism, and many other forms of bigotry were rampant. Even as a young child I said crazy hurtful things to complete strangers.

    The bible is full of paradoxes that are very difficult to understand and we are unlikely to fully understand them in this life but if we are to be faithful to God’s Word then we have to try and embrace both sides of the paradox. In this case we are made in God’s image, his law is imprinted on every heart, so we know that we all reflect God’s nature in some way and have a conscience (though some seem to have broken theirs).We know that God loved us first and that we have worth in that. We also know that “no one is righteous, no not one”, we have all sinned, that we are sinners both by nature and by choice and are deserving of death. No one can come to the father except through the atoning death of Jesus.

    If we only focus on one half of these paradoxical teachings then we do harm to ourselves and those around us. If we focus on only our depravity then, as you say we can struggle with things like self-loathing, harshness and abusiveness because Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t sufficient, we need to keep punishing ourselves and our children. If we only focus on ourselves as image bearers of God then we can get prideful, unreliant on God and really Pharisaical in how we view ‘sinners’ since we are “obviously” so much better than them (because our sins are so much less significant than theirs. . .)

    We need to love our children deeply just as our Father loves us AND we need to discipline them faithfully just as our Father disciplines us. Not to simply modify behavior but to get at the root heart issues. To help them see their sin (not so much that they hit their brother but that behavior demonstrated that they loved the toy more than their brother) and to help them walk towards humility and service to others.

    Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Ephesians 6:4

  • Cathy

    Right as I got up to leave the computer, I realize that I didn’t answer your question at all, E. Sorry ’bout that. My response was more to the issue of being “worthy” of God’s love, and your subsequent response, and the other comments. Forgive me for hijacking your post.

    C

  • http://www.thegreenlife05.blogspot.com Stephanie

    Theologically, I have spent years considering total depravity/ free will, so I don’t hope to say anything here to convince anyone in any direction. I just wanted to offer how my experience has been different.

    Believing in depravity has made me thankful for God’s grace, and for His continual patience and love for me. It makes me more compassionate towards my children, because I see in them my same struggles, thirty years later. It helps me remember that children are never going to “arrive” any more than I am. I can teach them appropriate responses, and I can shape the way they approach the world, but I will never, ever be able to remove the desire to act selfishly. I’m still struggling to respond unselfishly to others, and I’m an adult, capable of considering my actions and their consequences – our children’s brains are physiologically incapable of that at this point (and will be until late adolescence). In my home we emphasize working as a team and cooperating with one another – skills that will serve them well in the work world and in life. But I shudder to think I could ever be responsible for keeping them from acting selfishly – that is God’s work alone.

    As for abusive behavior – nothing excuses it, but I agree that peer pressure encourages it. And how adults view children allows them to excuse their own behavior. In our house, I hate spanking. Hate hate hate hate it – it is simply not natural for me to hit someone I love. That is not a natural response for me. There have been times when I have used spanking as a last result to address very specific, limited things, and it has worked to discourage that behavior. But as a part of daily discipline – there are so many better ways to shape behavior and encourage children that spanking just isn’t necessary on a daily basis.

    My two cents, for what it’s worth.

  • Barbara C.

    For some reason, all I can think about is VeggieTales “A Snoodle’s Tale”….how the poor little snoodle is constantly told how worthless he is and becomes discouraged with life and isolates himself…and then he meets his Creator and sees himself as the wonderful creature that the Creator meant for him to be.

    We should be trying to see each other as the wonderful creature God meant each of us to be. We should be assisting each other (man, woman, and child) to be the best versions of ourselves…but this can really only be done with love. And how does God mold us with his love? Example (through Jesus), natural consequences (the results of our own actions or disease and other works of nature), refusal (of our every request and demand), and complete giving of Himself (in Catholicism this includes His body and blood through the Eucharist).

    One other thing that struck me is the term “God-fearing”. I think it is woefully misunderstood. We aren’t supposed to fear God’s wrath. You don’t make a child “God-fearing” by teaching them to fear punishment. As “God-fearing” people, we are supposed to fear God’s disappointment in us. Are you more worried about disappointing someone you truly love and respect or someone who you are scared will hurt you? You can’t beat the love of God (or anyone else) into someone.

  • Deborah L

    I have nothing profoundly new to add to this conversation (which is a good one, by the way.) No, I do not think that believing people are inherently sinful necessarily leads to abuse (although there is always a group that will take things to the extreme). I grew up with this belief (inherent sin), but I also grew up with the knowledge of God’s vast love for me. There are extremes to every type of thinking. Obviously, spanking a 6-month-old is utter nonsense as is forcing a 2-year-old to sit through a 5-hour meeting. I would bet that there is a small minority of people who truly think this way. And looking at your child and not enjoying him/her because he/she is evil? (Taken from Aimee’s bit). Really, do many people feel this way? I know that my children were born with a sinful nature, but I adore these little people with every ounce of my being. When they stumble, I don’t think, “You vile, diabolical, depraved little worm!” I correct them through discipline and try, with God’s grace and wisdom to point them in the right direction. Obviously there are skewed churches who use the idea of “total depravity” in a horribly wrong way. I’m not saying anything new here, so I’ll just conclude. I think that one can believe the teaching of “total depravity” and still have love and compassion for those around and for one’s children. For obvious reasons, I can’t fully understand the mind of God, but I’m so happy He is in control and knows what He is doing! (This reply is not even remotely eloquent, I know. I’ll blame it on my little ones who are trying to climb onto my lap as we “speak”.)

  • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

    Nobody ever actually believes they are abusive (well, unless they start to truly get better, of course), which is often love twisted up to the point of being unrecognizable. My oldest son’s mother never saw and still doesn’t see herself as abusive, even after the testimony of multiple doctors and mental health professionals.

    Moreover, abusive behavior twists the children who love and need the abuser and don’t see them as abusive.

    It’s my observation after more than fifteen years that behaviors that are abusive (even if not usually over the top) are immensely more common in many Christian churches than most people care to admit. It’s not merely the “extreme” fringes. Moreover, the culture of many American Christian churches — even among those who are not abusive — very often provide protective screening for those who are, even the more extreme examples.

    EE’s conjecture on why that might be so is not a bad one. I rather doubt it’s just that. In anything as complex as this, there are bound to be multiple factors. But I hardly dismiss the idea she raises as one of those factors. It’s as good a working hypothesis as any.

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Thank you, Scott. Indeed, it is just a working hypothesis. Sometimes, though, I feel like I’m the only one who thinks about the WHYs and the HOWs and tries to figure it out.

    Maybe I’m just weird that way.

    Thanks for your support.

  • Pamela

    I am led to agree w/Elizabeth, that the “I am a worm” theology CAN be taken too far, producing bad consequences in both the believers and also for their children. That it HAS TO or WILL ALWAYS produce those consequences? NO, but it definitely can. My first church taught that we were useless, miserable sinners (even subsequent to conversion), BUT they were also careful to teach responsible (not overly violent) child rearing as well.

    First hint that you MIGHT be in an abusive church: 5 hour long church services?! Sounds like “abusing the time of God’s faithful people”. I can understand why a revival service might run that long — occasionally — but it should NOT be the norm. [My first church's "Sunday School" ran for 4 to 4-1/2 hours. I am including them in the mix of "abusing".]

  • Margaret

    Anything *can* be taken, twisted, and used to abuse.

    I believe as many other posters have mentioned, that we are born with a propensity to sin. One could call that ‘inherent wickedness’, I suppose. But to limit ones focus to the sinful nature is to put a gag in God’s “mouth” (His Word). Doing that, yes, there will be a tendency towards misuse and abuse. :(

    The theology of sin and redemtion in orthodox and historical Christian teaching does include “Oh what a wretch am I”, but it is so much, much more than that. Gloriously more. :)

    Just ftr, the concept of humans being “inherently good” and not tending towards sin can also be problematic. It may not have the *same* consequences when taken to extremes, but it does have them.

  • http://musings--aloud.blogspot.com Leah

    Thank you so much for writing about this. I think about this all the time, which is probably very abnormal for a non~mother. I work with small children on a regular basis, however, so I suppose that explains the source of my ponderings…

    I heard all and more than I ever cared to about the Pearls and their ideologies and practices in the book Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce. I have also been greatly troubled by the principles of TULIP theology, the first of which is your mentioned total depravity.

    Experience is truly the best teacher..so I think your experience makes you “biased” in a HELPFUL way. Those who haven’t experienced what you have can’t understand the full scope of destructive/abusive outcomes that are possible when these ideologies are employed. While your experience was within a more unique extreme, perhaps even those who have allegedly turned out wonderful and God-fearing after these “vile piece of scum” principles were applied to them should be very careful and discerning in evaluating the implications of their doctrine to see if they are truly representative of God’s love for the world and the message of Jesus.

  • http://notfinishedyet.wordpress.com Emily

    I haven’t read all the comments, so forgive me if I repeat what’s already been said.

    I do believe that we’re all born sinful and enemies of God. My “proof passage” would be from Romans 3, where it says, “The wages of sin is death,” and it’s sadly obvious that even little babies can die. Why would they die unless they’re sinful. So, yes, we’re all born sinful and in need of a Savior.

    As a Confessional Lutheran, I believe that God loved us despite our sin-filled state, sent his son to die on the cross for us to make us right with him. There is nothing we can do to affect our salvation. Christ has done it all by his sin-less life and his substitutionary death on the cross. If you believe this, you are saved.

    As far as how this impacts parenting, I would propose that there is a difference between the sinful state we are born in and the acts of sin (in thought, word and deed, both my ommission and commission). We are all born in that sinful state, but it doesn’t necessarily mean we are born comitting sins. All people, Christian or not, experience the effects of life in a sin-filled world, such as illness, sadness, unrest, anxiety, decay, disaster, heartache, loss, etc. All of these are unavoidable aspects of life in a sin-filled world.

    I think it makes a difference to view people as born into a sinful state as different from the sins they commit. I think it especially impacts parenting. I know my children are sinful, but I also know that not every action they do is a sin. Their childish actions and whims and tantrums are (usually!) signs of their immature development as humans. All humans, regardless of whether they’re Christian or not, experience those kinds of things.

    My parenting is shaped by how God has loved me. God loved me so much that he went out of his way to be merciful to me, even to the point of sacrificing his own son on the cross. The rules that God gives his people are his way for people to show that they love him. (Just like for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, their spiritual act of worship was to NOT eat from the tree of the knowledge fo good and evil. It was the one way God gave them to show their devotion to God.)

    So, while I give my children rules as well, and while I sometimes make their life unpleasant for a while when they act in a way that I know that they know not to do, I always try to be merciful and kind to my children as well, just as God is to me.

    I think when one has a very Law-oriented view of God (like most fundamentalist churches are – they seem to downplay the Gospel and emphasize the Law), then that will naturally have an effect on parenting. If one has a Gospel-based view of God, such as is found in Confessional Lutheranism, then parenting will look very different.

  • http://www.seekingfaithfulnessblog.blogspot.com Holly

    Right. It’s non-sensical. God punishes people for something they have NO control over. He chooses some, and destines others to eternal Hell because, well, because of His good pleasure. What a great view of God!

  • Matthew Rowe

    Elizabeth, just out of clarification hopes, could you do a reply or post on what you think sin is. A good definition. Deep. Roots deep. Also, what the point of Jesus coming was and what you think makes Jesus look at us and say, “They are worthy of my love.”

    Sometimes, the surface of the waters are rowed but the deep depths need to be dared. (Solely did that for alliteration purposes. Sometimes, I can’t help myself. More apt would be “need to be clarified”.)

    And this discussion rocks. Seriously. What a bunch of great thinkers. Way to get this going!

  • hope t.

    I hear you, EE! You are not the only one! I can’t overstate how much this issue has affected almost every aspect of my life. I have pondered it extensively.
    I did not suffer the abuse you suffered in childhood. My experience with it was as a mother feeling pressured by others to parent my children in what I now consider an overly-harsh way. I should have known better and actually did know better since I had a keen interest in developmental psychology and studied it at the undergrad level. BUT the church was so insistent about the only “godly” parenting paradigm that I felt I had to at least make a good faith effort to fit in with their theology and method. In short, it failed miserably. The last straw was when I was told that God hated my
    little boy and I should let him know that God hated him. My world tilted off its axis that day and has never been the same. Now, my children come first. They come FAR ahead of any fear of offending someone’s theology, Calvinist, hyper-Calvinist or any other “ist”. Theology is just a collection man made suppositions while children are eternal God breathed souls.

  • http://www.seekingfaithfulnessblog.blogspot.com Holly

    No…you’re definitely not the only one! :)

    It is interesting to me how we will say that we are to love our children as God loves us…and yet…if we love our children as the Calvinist says that God loves us…we don’t really love them. We see them as worthless, totally depraved creatures, who only through our benevolence are allowed life. Hunh?

    A pertinent Piper quote:

    “God is very dangerous apart from Jesus. He’s angry apart from Jesus.”

    Hunh? again.

    You can see the video where he quotes this at Tony Woodlief’s blog

    http://tonywoodlief.com/?p=2452

    Mark Driscoll says the following:

    “You have been told that God is a loving, gracious, merciful, kind, compassionate, wonderful, and good sky fairy who runs a day care in the sky and has a bucket of suckers for everyone because we’re all good people. That is a lie… God looks down and says ‘I hate you, you are my enemy, and I will crush you,’ and we say that is deserved, right and just, and then God says ‘Because of Jesus I will love you and forgive you.’ This is a miracle.”

    You can find more at:

    http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2009/08/my-favorite-mark-driscoll-quotes.html

    Sigh. I guess things like this, said like this, are what completely turned me off of total depravity. I finally realized that if we believe in total depravity (a la Calvinism,) and yet want to be good parents, we need to be better at parenting than God is. And that, to me, would be heresy. Knowing the love I feel for my children, even in our imperfections and weaknesses, knowing that I don’t see them as totally depraved or worthless “by design,” I knew deep within my heart that I could not assign this type of character to God. That would not be a God worth worshipping. The God that I love and that loves me does not hold me to a higher standard than He himself occupies.

  • http://www.seekingfaithfulnessblog.blogspot.com Holly

    I think that there is a difference between the concepts of original sin or a propensity to sin and the doctrine of total depravity.

    I, too, believe that we are born with a tendency to sin – but that brings about a compassion and a desire to lift, heal and redeem – because humans have great worth!

    Total depravity says that God hates me, that God wants to crush me, and only Jesus standing in front of God saves me.

    (p.s….are you the Margaret that I know and love? :) Waves!)

  • http://livinglearningandlovingsimply.blogspot.com Aimee

    I found this very helpful…thank you for sharing this!

  • http://livinglearningandlovingsimply.blogspot.com Aimee

    yes! my abuse happened as an adult as a mother feeling enormous pressure for my children to appear perfect and obedient and “under control”. If they didn’t, then I wasn’t walking with the Lord/being obedient to God to train them up in righteousness. I SHOULD have known better too and HATED it, but thought “who am I to question this?” In my wanting to be “teachable” and “humble” as a young parent, I kept listening to this teaching and it was destroying me. I was even being told that children should be able to understand and believe the gospel at about age 4 and since my child was close to 6 and hadn’t placed his faith in Christ that it was MY fault and I better bring him to that place through showing him how sinful he is and how much he needs Jesus…and to bring him to that place over and over again throughout the day so that he will see how he needs Jesus. It was traumatizing for all of us and oh how happy I am glad to be FREE from a controlling/manipulative church and by grace, seek to be a non-spiritually controlling, spiritually manipulative mother.

  • Margaret

    Hi Holly! Yes, it’s me. :D

    I may have misinterpreted what people are meaning by “total depravity”. Never been Calvinist, and actually never associated fundamentalist Christianity (the type frequently talked about here) with Calvinism, apart from a few outlying Baptist groups.

  • http://livinglearningandlovingsimply.blogspot.com Aimee

    I am also planning on reading the book “Twisted Scriptures”…because so many in my life have taken the Word and used it to abuse and manipulate and hurt me and those I love with it. People throw around “Biblical” all the time and don’t realize that they need to approach Scripture very humbly and recognize that their interpretation may be WRONG. The Christian world has SO many “authorities” who use the Bible as their sword to slay others..and many of these so-called “authorities” disagree with each other!! So who’s right???

  • http://livinglearningandlovingsimply.blogspot.com Aimee

    It’s interesting how so many think that once they saw how sinful or “totally depraved” they were, it made God’s love and grace seem sweeter. Hearing how I awful and sinful and terrible I was made me an anxious, fearful Christian. Once I began to drink deeply of the love of God for me (which took me several years to believe), I then was able to see how sinful I was because I finally felt safe to!! When I understood the unconditional love of God for me, I was able to see how deep my sin is and truly rejoice in my salvation and His grace. I try to tell my children constantly about the love of God and uphold His beauty and goodness…I want them to recognize how Jesus received children and delighted in them…I can’t imagine teaching them that b/c of their sinfulness, Jesus “hates” them…shudder.

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Again, Aimee, we agree. :) Hearing how awful I am only made me a trembling, fearful Christian, too.

    Like you, it wasn’t until I felt safe enough and started truly believing God loved me unconditionally that I could relax and acknowledge and repent of my sin.

    p.s. I would NEVER EVER tell my children that God hated them. What a terrible heresy!

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Um…maybe. Look, I’m not a theologian. I’m just a lowly ol’ housewife who likes to think about this stuff. Maybe if I get all inspired about it, I’ll write about sin. But maybe not. I guess you’ll just have to keep reading to find out! :)

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Thank you, Leah. I would agree that my experience has made me biased in a HELPFUL way, too. In some ways, I’m able to see the “end result” and the logical outcome of these doctrines. Except a lot of readers ’round here would probably say I overgeneralize and am unfair. :) It’s all OK, though. I’m always game for a good discussion! :)

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    See, here’s the thing: I DO agree with original sin and that we all have a propensity to sin. And I think there’s an important difference between believing that–and that God hates me! (yikes)–and total depravity. Thanks for chiming in, dear Holly!

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Generation Cedar. Ah, yes. I have a long history with Kelly. Mostly, arguing with her. ha. I can’t listen to Mark Driscoll, either. He sends me straight into a panic attack.

    If Mark Driscoll’s kind of Christianity were true, I would not be a Christian.

  • april

    I am a Christian who believes in TULIP, and I think a lot of people are saying total depravity equals God hates us when that is not true. God loves us and hates sin. He created us good, we screwed up, we need intercession because God and sinner can not fellowship together without Jesus. He loved us enough to make a way to be together again, but he Hates sin. He is angry towards it.
    The Gospel is not the same without the need of reconciliation because of our sin nature.

    Here is the definition of Total Depravity from Tulipgems.con
    God, through the Hebrew Prophet Jeremiah, shows us the real condition of our sinful hearts. Not only is fallen man’s nature evil, but he CANNOT CHANGE. He can no more change his sin nature than a black man can change his skin color, or a leopard change its spots.

    Man, by his fall into sin, has lost all ability of will to any spiritual good that might accompany salvation. Natural man is dead in sin and is not able, in his own strength, to convert himself, nor to prepare himself for conversion.

    This does NOT mean that all men are equally bad. Nor does it mean that any man is as bad as he could be. Nor does it mean that anyone is entirely destitute of virtue. Nor does it mean that man’s spirit is inactive.

    What it DOES mean is that since the fall of Adam into sin, man rests under the curse of sin. He is actuated by wrong principles. He is wholly unable to truly love God or to do anything meriting salvation.

    I am not trying to stir the pot just wanted to clarify that Total Depravity does not equal God hates You.

    But God does hate sin. My question would be like the previous posters too, How do you explain why Jesus came and died for us? And how would you explain Hell if we are good on our own.

    I don’t think any of us are arguing that God hates us, I think we are arguing the definition of Total Depravity.

  • http://www.elizabethesther.com Elizabeth Esther

    Um…I was going to respond, but I was stopped short by this: “he can no more change his sin nature than a black man can change his skin color”? What a crude–and fairly racist–analogy!

    You’re comparing the unchangeable sin nature to black skin color? YIKES.

  • april

    I am sorry about that, copied the definition off the website and didn’t realize it said more than the leopard changing it’s spots. I was in no way trying to be racist at all. I am sorry. That wasn’t from me.

    Although I do believe in the total depravity part. Forgive me for my misjudgment in quotes.

    I do enjoy reading your blog. Again very sorry.

  • Synesthesia

    It’s not a healthy attitude. Where is the concept of love and trust? Of patience and mercy?
    That is what a child really needs, but doctrines like this make compassion towards the most vunerable an anathema

  • Liz Larson-DiPippo

    Thank you for bring up this topic and giving me the opportunity and the motivation to think through what I believe about it. I too was taught the “wicked from birth” and total depravity doctrines and while I have questioned much of my upbringing, I hadn’t really gotten around to this one yet. As I was thinking about this and reading through the comments, someone brought up the TULIP theology so I went google-ing and found what seems to me to be a very clearly laid out presentation of the doctrine and then a very clear scriptural refutal.
    http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Tulip3.htm is the link to the page and it really helped me see that I don’t believe in total depravity any more. I have had a sense especially since becoming a mother that while my child is far from perfect so also is she far from totally depraved. She sins but she is also quick to apologize. She does wrong but she also wants desperately to please me. I think that is what Jesus means by the fact that unless we become like little children we won’t see the kingdom of Heaven. God isn’t asking for perfection or sinlessness (in our own power) from us but for a contrite heart and a humble spirit that wants to please Him more than we want our own way. Anyway, thats what I was thinking about today. Thanks for being a safe place where we can all talk and think things through. Blessings!

  • http://scitascienda.com C.L. Dyck

    I think it’s a twist on Scripture to say everything an unsaved person does heaps further condemnation upon them, as compared to, “nothing a person does can earn or lose the salvation found in Christ alone.” It really depends what a preacher means by “all is sin.”

    I’ve met Calvinists who agree that many secularists live more moral lives than many Christians. In conversations I’ve been in, I’ve seen a distinction mentioned between total depravity (being completely unable to effect our own salvation) and utter depravity (the complete evil of all natural thought and action), which is linked to hyper-Calvinism and is more along the lines of what you mention.

    However, the Pearls teach that man is morally neutral at birth, and children must be beaten to ensure they don’t develop depravity. The conditioning is intended to create a moral reflex causing them to choose salvation at the point of full moral development.

    It is a chameleon teaching with shades of hyper-Calvinism, sinless perfectionism, and moral government theology that can worm its way into any system through its shifts of language. People simply assume they’re hearing what they’re used to hearing, when in fact the underlying theology is ultimately none of the above.

  • http://fromthepulpitofmylife.blogspot.com/ Ruth Ann

    Katherine, of the several comments, yours is one to which I can relate. It sounds very Catholic, and that’s how I was raised to think. We distinguish between original sin and personal sin. Concupiscence weakens us but our free will with God’s grace strengthens us.

  • http://papuagirlindallas.blogspot.com/ Kacie

    In Andrea’s defense… it’s not just Calvinism… Calvin is a restatement in many ways of Luther. I’m not defending it all because I’m not sure exactly where I stand yet, but I’m actually reading a bio of Luther (by Kittleson) right now in an attempt to understand how and why the Catholic/Protestant split was so strong.

    I mentioned in my last comment on your total depravity post that I was reading about Luther’s thought process in developing his thoughts about sin and grace. He sounds an awful lot like how we perceive Calvin, even in his early writing. He describes our fallenness as, “The loss of all uprightness and the powers of all our faculties, whether of the body or of the soul, of the whole person both inward and outward… for it is like a sick man whose mortal illness is not only the lack of health in one of his members, but in addition to having lost the health of all his members, also has such a weakness in all his senses and powers that he finally disdains those things that are healthful and desires things that make him sick.”

    “(the scriptures) describe man as so turned in on himself that he uses not only physical but even spiritual goods for his own purposes and in all things seek only himself…. Man, I say, turns all these things to himself, seeks his own good in them all, and horribly makes idols out of them in place of the true God…”

    Here’s the the thing, I do not think that this believe is, as you say, the root of awful things like the Pearl’s philosophy. Like I said, I’m not sure where I stand on this issue but what I do know is that believing in total depravity doesn’t naturally lead to beating out evil in man. For Luther, the understanding of the evil in man is what led him to understand free grace for the first time.

    It’s not… “while we were yet sinners…. we had to be beaten into finally giving up our evil nature”. No… that mentality goes AGAINST total depravity. Total depravity says that no amount of control or discipline or (on the other side) positive parenting or self-development can save a soul. The idea of total depravity is, “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

    And thus, the natural conclusion is not to say that we are evil and thus deserve to be treated as evil. The conclusion of total depravity is that we are hopeless when left alone, but oh! the grace of God that shows love EVEN while we sin and do not deserve it….and thus we should love and show grace to all others, even if they are sinners and don’t deserve it.

  • http://www.seekingfaithfulnessblog.blogspot.com Holly

    Me too, Elizabeth. And thanks for making me think!

  • http://www.thejoyofhome.blogspot.com Dianna

    I just want to say this isn’t about what Calvin or Luther believes, but about what the Bible teaches.

    And yes, I do think that my belief in total depravity effects my parenting. Why? Because I’m not just trying to change my kids behavior, but help expose their hearts to them and show them why they need Jesus. Their behavior is a reflection of their heart. I always tell my son when I discipline him that I am a sinner and he is a sinner and we both need Jesus. I want him to know that he can’t be righteous on his own merit and that he desperately needs Jesus, and that I desperately need Jesus.

    And non-believers can do good to others, but their hearts are still wicked. We don’t need Jesus to change our behavior, but our hearts. My husband and I know some wonderful people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses and they are “good” people, but they are going to hell because they don’t trust in Jesus for salvation. And you know what? Our hearts break for them and we have shared the gospel with them, but they have rejected it.

    I believe that the doctrine of total depravity is good for my parenting, not bad.

  • brook

    Holly,

    Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with “our view” of God, but only what God has revealed about Himself in Scripture. It *seems* very unfair, unless you do believe that all of us deserve condemnation.

    “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

    22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called…”

  • Nicholas

    Categorically, these two are not Christians. They are, to my understanding, a cult wrapped around a gospel hobby of spanking children. I’d daresay it’s abuse. If they are Christians, please excommunicate me now.