Predestination: my deepest fear

Something has been keeping me awake at night. It’s this nagging question–a doubtful feeling–that perhaps I really am predestined to Hell.

It’s odd because I’ve never really believed in predestination–at least, not consciously. I’ve never said the words: “I believe in predestination.”

And yet, it’s always been there, niggling my subconscious, occasionally waking me up at night with its cold, somber face. I don’t think I’ve ever dared look at the concept of predestination fully, to stand in the harsh glare of its unforgiving light. Because it really is my deepest fear, the unspoken shadow.

Predestination confirms my deepest fear that God’s love is conditional–or, at the very least, He doles it out discriminately. As a child, I was taught that God might not choose me for the Rapture and that I could be left behind to face the End of the World alone.

I can’t tell you how many areas of my life this has affected. One simple example is that I’m always afraid my husband will walk out on me. I didn’t realize how deeply this was ingrained in my thinking until recently when someone remarked, “Wow, you’ve been with your husband for 16 years? That’s a long time! What’s your secret?”

It was so strange because I almost felt like saying, “There is no secret. Next week, I’m sure he’ll leave me.”

Ultimately, I think I’m just very uncomfortable with uncertainty. Perhaps more so than the average person. I get worried sick about being abandoned.

And I have been abandoned before. In the depths of my trembling fears, I tell myself that I have survived. I sing little songs of hope to myself, reminding myself of comforting Scripture that I dare hope applies to me.

But I’m not sure. I am always doubtful that even if it were true God loved me the way I hope He loves me (ie. that He’s the God who always searches me out, loves me unconditionally)—I’m too messed up to believe it for long. I can remind myself of the times I felt and knew His love. But I’m always needing affirmation because my default mode returns to: I’m not loved.

Isn’t it a symptom of unbelief and distrust that I cannot believe His love for long? Shouldn’t I get past the point of needing to hit that “Do You Love Me?” button and hoping a little morsel of love pops out–temporarily assuaging my aching need?

Sometimes I think God must get really annoyed with my constant punching of that “Do You Love Me?” button. I mean, even I’m annoyed with myself!

All of which makes me wonder: what if it is true? What if my inability to trust God’s love and to always flee from church buildings is proof that I am predestined to eternal separation from God–to Hell?

I’m thinking the Calvinists might see me as their very own walking proof that predestination is real.

I wouldn’t blame them.

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  • http://laurennicolelove.com/blog @laurenlankford

    If you have ever felt the pull of God on your heart, He has chosen you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to spend Eternity with Him. <3

    • alison

      This is exactly what I was going to say. :) It’s easier to say than to do, but just BELIEVE that you are precious child because you are.

    • http://momshenanigans.blogspot.com Rachel

      I think the fact that you are so concerned about being loved by God is an indicator that God is drawing you to himself.

  • http://accidentalauslanderin.blogspot.com @BrennaDarazs

    Oh hon, this too has always been my deepest fear, at least since my “conversion” to Christianity. It took years to build up, so I imagine it could take a while to feel safe and comfortable in God’s love. Waiting for it…

  • http://theaccidentalauslanderin.blogspot.com @BrennaDarazs

    Sh*t! Sorry my link was bad. BTW, how was your birthday? So glad we got to chat! xo

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      I’m glad I got to hear your voice on my birthday. Thank you, Brenna. Let’s talk again soon before you move, OK? xo.

  • KatR

    Or, maybe years and years of hearing about a God who was always at the ready to burn you at a moments notice matches up perfectly with a theology that says God plays favorites.

    I get this. I really do. I used to describe myself as a rare Calvinist, one of the few who believed that she wasn’t picked. I hated that God (god?) And honestly, even if I was one of the “elect”, I don’t want to pray to a God like that, and I certainly don’t want to spend an eternity locked in a room with a God like that.

    So I’ve decided that I have to believe differently. And I have to listen only to voices that speak of a gentle, loving God. I’ve been filled to the brim with the voices who spoke of a hateful, vengeful, cold, capricious God. I can’t listen to those voices anymore. And I have no problem staying the hell away (pardon the pun) from churches who speak that way.

    Maybe I’m wrong. But thinking the way I am now, I went back to church last week. And I started praying using an Anglican rosary. One way of thinking is bringing me back to God, and one way of thinking keeps me running the opposite direction. I’ll take the way I’m going.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      “One way of thinking is bringing me back to God, one way of thinking keeps me running the opposite direction….” YES.

      Kat, thank you for going on this journey with me. I just want you to know how much I love you.

  • http://www.blessedisthekingdom.com Fr. Christian Mathis

    You are predestined like the rest of us to receive the abundance of God’s love. It is very much like how your kids were predestined to have your love before they were born.

    • http://www.laundryandlullabies.blogspot.com Emily

      Father, this is a lovely way of putting it. Thank you.

      • Jack

        Quite right. Jesus said, “Whoever comes to me I will in no way cast out.”

        He also said, “Whosoever will, let him/her come.”

        Even St. Paul said, “It is not the will of God that ANY should perish.”

        God predestined each of us individually to love, and His love will NEVER let us go.

        • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

          I love the Orthodox example of God never turning away from us–remember that video I linked to? That His love is always reaching out, always, always reaching out. That is the kind of love I have for my own children—no matter WHAT they do, they’ll always be my children and I’ll always love them–but can God love us like that, too? I can only hope….

      • http://www.blessedisthekingdom.com Fr. Christian Mathis

        Thank you. It just seems to me that the Scriptures from beginning to end testify to God’s love.

    • http://www.blessedisthekingdom.com Fr. Christian Mathis

      The other thing that always strikes me is that I have never met a parent who would choose to send their child to hell, even if that child had made great mistakes. There is always mercy, because mercy is at the heart of love. And the thing is, God loves us a million times more than we love our own children.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Yes, my love for my children is absolutely unconditional. There is nothing they could do to EVER remove themselves from my love. I can only hope God’s love is bigger, stronger than that?

      • Donna

        If God, who is perfect, doesn’t/can’t love us more than we, who are a very long way from perfect (just speaking for myself here :) ) love our children, then He isn’t perfect.
        I think in the end, you just have to choose. Choose to believe that God is what His word says He is, regardless of what you feel about yourself, or choose not to.
        And maybe some prayer from someone you trust for abandonment and rejection heart-wounds mightn’t go astray…
        (((((hugs)))))

  • http://nakiru.wordpress.com nakiru

    Thanks for making me stop and think.
    For me, predestination is the theology that keeps me sane. When I have a terrible day, when I don’t feel like I believe anymore, when I wonder whether He’s listening at all, I remember that, and I think “Well, He’s in control. I’m sure He knows what He’s doing,” and I chill out. :-)

    It is good for me to remember that just because I find something a comfort, it doesn’t mean that it’s a comfort to everyone, and that I shouldn’t offer my balm of Gilead for everyone else’s wounds without talking to them about how they best receive comfort, from Him or from His people.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Thanks for understanding. I think that’s so important in order for healing to happen between Christians. Thank you.

  • http://adifferentstory.net Lyla Lindquist

    He loves you the way you hope He does. Convinced of it. Just as much as I’m convinced He loves the opportunity to remind you, so keep pushing the button. He’ll keep loving to tell you.

    And keep singing those little songs of hope to yourself. Where do you suppose they come from?

    • http://www.emuf.blogspot.com Emily

      Beautifully stated. Thank you Lyla.

  • http://mecerone.blogspot.com Mary Beth

    Oh wow, I am RIGHT THERE with you. I used to stay up all night worrying that I might not be predestined to heaven. I’ve only been married for 2 years, but yeah, I am constatnly terrified of the day he figures out I’m actually crazy and leaves me, no matter how many times he assures me this won’t happen.

    Even recently, I would have tried to convince you to stop being so emotional and accept the joyful truth of Calvinism… but I’ve come to realize that I hold onto Calvinism for much more emotional reasons than I do for some academic rational reason. And ultimately, while I do believe that I’m predestined, I am starting to realize this might not be the most important doctrine in the bible. (For those of us who weren’t raised Calvinist, the “conversion” experience tends to get us all riled up!)

    So I’m super glad that God and my husband love me, for whatever reasons, I will never know. I just have to keep asking them to remind me.

  • http://heldts.blogspot.com Brianna

    I so enjoy reading your thoughts. Life is so messy, isn’t it? I have given a bit of thought to predestination myself simply because I’ve belonged to various Evangelical churches, some of which taught predestination, and some that didn’t. (We currently are being drawn towards joining the Roman Catholic Church but that is another story for another time. :) )

    I have never, EVER been comfortable with the idea that God CHOOSES some people for Hell (??!!) and some for Heaven. Ever. I DON’T think that is supported by the whole of Scripture and I believe He truly DOES desire that all should be with Him. The early Church Fathers did not teach these Calvinistic ideas.

    It hurts my heart to think that God specifically created some people to be separated from Him for eternity. I do think there is great mystery to these things, but ultimately I believe that anyone who cries out for mercy from Jesus will receive Him. (The Catholic Catechism is so incredibly gracious and mercy-filled on the point of salvation. So much room for God and His love and grace.)

    I’m sorry for leaving such a long comment! I too will sometimes have a thought of, oh no, what if I’m not going to make it? (I am a bit of a worrier by nature, unfortunately.) But I believe God’s love itself is unconditional and I also believe that part of the perserverance Paul talks about is enduring through our OWN doubts and fears and insecurities. God knows all of this. And still He loves. And that love transcends all those doubts, fears and insecurities–and the fleeing of church buildings too.

  • http://mecerone.blogspot.com Mary Beth

    Oh, also, I had a friend/mentor say one time that whenever someone becomes a Calvininist, we should lock them in a closet for a year or two until they calm down. I think this is SO true, and I am often embarrassed of how I was so passionately obnoxious about a doctrine that is not essential to salvation.

    I thought this might encourage you since I suspect you don’t really deal with many of us baptist/armenian-raised but calvin-converted around early adulthood (except for on this blog.)

    We’re very easily excited.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      I’ve encountered many excitable Calvinists. And Catholics. And Baptists. And Mormons. It’s not the excitability that turns me off, necessarily. People get excited and passionate for all sorts of reasons. It’s the core teachings of Calvinism that really destroy me; ie. total depravity. For me? It definitively twists my concept and idea of God. Like Kat mentioned, I have to believe differently.

      • http://mecerone.blogspot.com Mary Beth

        Yes, but I think that people who didn’t grow up Calvinist, and certainly haven’t seen how the doctrine could be used to hurt people (as you’ve shared on your blog), honestly don’t understand how the doctrine could be hurtful, so we are extra determined to convert EVERYONE.

        Actually, reading your blog was a big part in teaching me to be compassionate about it. I never understood that even if I am totally positive something is true, it might not be compassionate to bang someone over the head about it. Particularly when we’re talking about the manner of salvation, and not actually whether or not someone is saved.

        I’m not at all bothered (anymore! <– silly me!) that you believe differently. I still believe that God loves you and I will see ya in heaven one day.

        • http://mecerone.blogspot.com Mary Beth

          “even if I am totally positive something is true,” <– just to clarify, I am fine with God changing my mind on this. Just where I am now. I didn't mean to make that sound like, "you silly wrong person."

  • http://heldts.blogspot.com Brianna

    LOVE what Fr. Christian Mathis said! Such a beautiful way to think of it.

    • http://www.blessedisthekingdom.com Fr. Christian Mathis

      Thank you Brianna.

  • http://thehomespunlife.com Sisterlisa

    I just posted an article about these kinds of fears at Soul Liberty Faith. God is not in the business of making people fear like this or doubt His love for them. Those fears and doubts come from other places and any teaching from any place, whether it’s a church or a movie, that makes you doubt God’s love for you is a hideous toxic poison to be avoided. No one is predestined to burn in hell. We’re all predestined in Christ. Everything about God in Christ is about reconciliation. If we look at the bible with a beam in our eyes we will only see a one sided view of it..but to look at God through the eyes of Christ..through his view of righteousness, we see a whole different story..a deeper story..love.

  • http://thehomespunlife.com Sisterlisa

    Here’s the link and it will be a series on conquering those fears. http://soullibertyfaith.com/?p=784

  • http://amongwomenpodcast.blogspot.com/ Pat Gohn

    Hi Elizabeth,

    As a Catholic catechist, I’d like to share that the graces of your faith and your baptism give you reason for hope and not for fear or doubt.

    If I may quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 163:
    “Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is” (1 Cor 13:12.) So faith is already the beginning of eternal life.”

    Your baptism justifies you and invites you to an eternal life with God. And God becoming a man who died for you on the cross proves that God does not abandon us. He became like us in all things but sin. He suffered with us and died so that we might no longer be alone, or cast adrift, but that we have communion with him through the power of his resurrection.

    Again, the Catechism teaches in par. 1992: “Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life.”

    Naturally, to experience this more fully we must also trust that the grace of the sacraments are conduits of love and mercy and peace and assurance, even when our own faith fails us. The sacraments are God’s tangible gifts to us. Our love may fail, but God’s love never does. You could say that, in a certain sense, your baptism already predestines you for heaven… but you must continually choose God and his ways to receive the full promise of your baptism, which is heaven’s reward.

    Sometimes we are called to cling to these truths when our feelings/emotions and ideas fail us. Truth doesn’t change, but our feelings can fluctuate. I won’t pretend to know where you are at in terms of your own faith life, but, speaking personally, I’ve experienced that Lent is a great time to return to full participation in the Catholic Church, in anticipation of the true celebration of heaven and eternal life: Easter Sunday.

    Thanks for letting me share a little about that here.

  • Tara Meghan

    I figure God must be really, really, really, really, really patient. He made stars that last for billions of years… I mean, who does that? And then you just sit and watch them do their star thing. For 10 billion years. Us crazy people with our crazy-broken-people thing…the entire collective story of people is a very short story compared to most everything else going on in the universe.

    Have you seen Dogma by Kevin Smith? You should watch that movie; it’s fantastic. (Oh noes, I just scandalized a whole bunch of nice people!). But put the kids to bed first. It’s not a family movie. AT ALL. However, if you can find the stomach for swearing and a bunch of gratuitous violence, I would definitely recommend it – it changed my ability to think about God at a very pivotal time in my spiritual development. LOVE that movie.

  • h.

    The filthy worm theology has done a real psychological number on people. The worst of it is when young children are psychically barraged with that tripe. In being told to die to their loathsome selves, it is implied (or sometimes stated outright) that to love themselves would be sin. So I am going to be scandalous here and say “Love yourself, EE!” That is the love that can not be taken away. I see from your writing, pictures, and video blogs that you are an awesome person, brimming with life and love and maternal feeling, as well as having incredible emotional resilience. (AND you know how to cook.) If I were you, I would love me…kwim? :)
    Just an aside about the church situation: I don’t go to church anymore. My husband takes the children because that is important to him. I won’t torture myself that way, though. I am free to go or not go but right now not going is a kindness I give to myself.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Love myself? What?! :) Sometimes I think I need to look through the lens of how other people see me because I pretty much guarantee it is better than the lens through which I see myself. Thank you. And this Sunday? I plan on making my Sabbath Day of Soup with chive biscuits!

      • http://mecerone.blogspot.com Mary Beth

        “Sometimes I think I need to look through the lens of how other people see me ” because we think you are hilariously witty and delightful! :)

        • http://www.lara-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.com Lara Laity

          Yep! We think you’re amazing!

  • Mark S.

    I have so been where you are in this piece. Those who have been abandoned, are victims of conditional love have the hardest time believing in our heart of hearts that it can be different. We KNOW from our experience what the conditional looks like and have no trust that the other is possible.

    Thant said, here is what makes it better for me. First, God exists outside of time and with that He created us with free will. We get to choose Him. Oh, and He has chosen us. The last bit is hard to see a lot for me until I really stop and look around me for a long while and ask Him to show me evidence. Yes, I ask God for proof. What invariably happens is that I somehow experience my children, my wife, my peaceful times, beauty, joyful things. But I need to do the work of stopping, putting a lot (for me) of time aside to meditate. So the ability for us to choose, our free will, is the gift but also the “curse” for us who have this problem. How will I know if I chose wrongly. God already must know how I choose so it’s all settled. Well, it’s more of a mystery than humans can parse out. We live in time but can’t imagine it not existing. But all things are present for God and will be for us once we leave this existence at death. For us in time, the only thing we know is that one minute follows another and I can only see now clearly and the past dimly. The future is blank. So I make choices. You do too. Even when you choose not to choose, well, you choose. We are beings who choose. It defines us. It’s not instinct but free will.

    Second, the exercise I was given by a wise priest is the modern version of a parable Jesus told about the depth and breadth of God’s love. It was human because I can’t understand divine. Here it is: Is there ANYTHING one of your children could do that would make you stop loving them? Anything? I mean, there are clearly things that would make me exquisitely sad and maybe deeply not like them, but stop loving? I can not imagine that in any worst case scenario (and I have a very extensive imagination). Well, God loves us more than that as is so clearly elaborated in 1 John 4. Even when we screw up, He is constant and forgiving and merciful. All we need to do is ask (because He always honors our right not to ask) and complete mercy is present. All we need to do is ask God in our prayers if He loves us (and yes, He doesnt get annoyed if we ask, we are His kids) and He will tell us so. I know, I have and do.

    I know this “testimony” is mine and quite possibly not able to help with your doubts. I offer one more thing. As a member of Christ’s Body, you and I and all the believers are connected. Reach out your hands like you do in this piece. We are all here to hold them. That is the visible real constant sign that God loves you.

  • J. R. Pascucci

    p.s. the correct (Catholic atque orthodoxis) term (euphemism, really) for those who will go to hell is they are the “forknown”. There is never a predestination to hell, that’s protestant and wrong in the sense of inaccurate.

    Simply put, this means that the good news is that God’s love isn’t conditional. The bad news is that our cooperation with it _is_.

    The gift to come to salvation is a free gift (a gratuitous grace, we couldn’t merit it) but we must cooperate with that gift, become holier (sanctifying is a process), and it is _that_ effort, that merit, that is our personal perfection (which makes us like our Father in heaven).

    All creation is predestined to the return – but having given us (humans and angels) freedom, along with intellect and will (because, in Love, He wants us to be like He is Himself), hell remains as a “radical possibility of love” (h/t to Papa, who was dead on).

    Consider: if someone rejected God on earth, would they _really_ want to be with Him forever? Hell is merciful to the soul in flight, otherwise God would be, not to put too fine a point on it, a rapist.

    “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I have preached to you, otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

    If – that’s the scary thing. And “hold firmly” – this implies action and not just contemplation (b/c “everyone who says Lord, Lord”). But, given both of these, this is from where the fear-and-trembling thing gets it’s impetus.

    But, I also think it is this for why “the evils of the day are sufficient thereunto”. If only we get through this day loving God, then let tomorrow take care of itself. This is also why the sacrament of Confession is a great mercy and grace.

    To the previous commentator who talked about loving yourself,I respond: Love God, love your neighbor (in the latin “proximum” – those around you) as you love yourself. You don’t come last, you come equal.

    (p.s. I was thinking about Michael Voris’ RealCatholicTV recently – they do a very good job at all these sorts of questions, it’s definitely worth a few bucks for a trial for a month).

    • Tammy

      What a great post! I agree with this and will fully disclose that Im not Calvinist…I went from finding Christ in Evangelicalism to Catholicism without ever learning that the happy clappy ones were too often terrified of thier own doctrines of Calvinism. Not meant disrespectfully, but my son says “Calvin was predestined to be wrong”.

      What I see in Gods nature all around me contradicts the idea that “Way, Truth & Life” would take on flesh, come to earth and establish a Church (upon you I build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) and then WAIT 1500-1800 years to tell us stuff as important as “predestination” and “rapture”…no, I think those were human inventions created to explain something that the inventor (of those ideas) couldn’t reconcile. I think if they had been more patient, they would have found answers in the existing revelations in the orthodox without having to make such severe departures.

      God didn’t create Hell to send us there, he created heaven for all but had to create a place for those who used their free will to turn their backs on God.

      Perfect love casts out fear…but in our weakness we (me included ) can be paralyzed by fear…sometimes rationally so…Im afraid of I-95…the idea of getting in a metal box and flinging myself down a road at 75 miles an hour with other people doing the same knowing that at ay second one slight misjudgement will fling us all into fiery ball of death and dismemberment, and yet still I drive on it.

      Parents abuse, spouses leave, children betray and as tender women who put our whole selves into those we love, we can fear it to the point of paralysis, but as someone who has suffered all 3 (with varying levels of resloution – my parents have banished me, my husband returned and my child didnt mean to blow the $75,000 I gave him for college that I earned myself) I can tell you that I’m not scared anymore…certainly not scared enough to let it ruin the good in my life.

    • Margaret

      Great post, and I agree, even though I’m an Evangelical Protestant. Never a Calvinist. :p

      It should be pointed out here that not all Protestants are Calvinists. Even Baptists range from hyper Calvinist to near Arminian when it comes to predistination.

      EE, God made you, and he loves you. He is there when you run to him, and when you run away. His back is never turned, the door (Jesus) is always open. “*Whosoever* will” includes you. :)

  • Robyn Umstead

    I’ve struggled with a lot of things you have written about, and this topic is one of them…….I don’t think I grew up exactly like you, but there were obviously some similarities……

  • http://www.JanetOberholtzer.com Janet Oberholtzer

    EE … I don’t know what to say. I’m sorry predestination has caused you sleepless nights.
    Actually, there is one thing I want to say. FU predestination!

    Sorry … but doesn’t true love equal freedom? Nothing forced. Nothing manipulated. Freedom. And if God is love … he gives freedom, so therefore there is no such thing as anyone predestined for anywhere.

    Peace to you, especially tonight when you want to sleep.

  • http://stmonicasbridge.wordpress.com Kristen @ St Monica’s Bridge

    My husband was raised nominally Calvinist. I say nominally because his family attended a Presbyterian church once a week and that was the extent of God in their home. Oh and occasionally saying grace and the choice of Presbyterian was random, because most of their neighbors were. The one thing that stuck with my husband was predestination. And he figured well, if I’m predestined for hell, I might as well “raise hell” right here and now. At the age of 18, just after graduating high school, he dove off a cliff into shallow water and broke his neck. In fact, he broke the same vertebrae Christopher Reeve did. My husband, thirty years later, is not paralyzed, and besides some lingering joint pains and metal in his neck, is fine. Fully functional. We have three small children. He was drunk and high when he jumped. He teaches high school now.

    Early on in our relationship we were arguing about Calvinism vs Catholicism and I remember saying to him, “If God chose to spare you a life of living in constant pain or paralysis and the associated complications; how could you believe God would choose to send you to hell?” (Oh, btw, unrelated but the argument started about if Catholics were Christians.) I never miss a chance to tell him that God chose to give him a second chance at life in order that he (my husband) could choose of his own free will to choose to follow God. That God loves him enough and thinks he is worthy enough for life, for children, for a home, for dogs even…God finds him worthy of heaven but it is up to him to find himself worthy of God’s love. I struggle to find myself worthy, but I think that’s part of the process.

    Elizabeth, the ONLY thing you were predestined for is God’s eternal love and forgiveness. I truly believe this with all my heart. <3 Kristen

  • http://www.graceandgiggles.wordpress.com Rebekah Grace

    The depth of this post resonates with me on many levels. I want to touch on 2 things:

    Abandonment…..My dad, a preacher, left our family. I’d seen him preach from the pulpit, spend hours and days and months with his nose in his Bible. And he left. What in the heck does that say about his God He spoke of? I was a little girl. I didn’t know anything about anything. Kind of like now. *laugh* So, what did I do? I bailed. If God was going to leave me, then I’d leave first. It won’t hurt that way. I was wrong. He never left. He actually waited, longing, looking for me to come Home. Awesome! Grace!

    Secondly……church. Many will not understand what I’m about to say. I’m beyond caring what others think. Sorry, no offense intended. I stopped attending church when I was around 12 or 13. Lived decades, a prodigal existence that would make some cringe. I came Home. I was drawn Home. I am Home. The Father’s Arms feel so good! So safe. So unlike the world I left behind. Both the religious world and the world world. I tried church last March. It took me 3 months to leave. I haven’t been back. But my journey is still going strong. I persevere in Christ, not in church. The thing of my journey that others do not understand, I know God does. And today, that’s enough.

    So Elizabeth….if you can’t be in the building, know this…..please know this, from my heart to yours…….He has you. You are safe. You are loved. Based on Him. Not you.

    Love your honesty! Truly!

  • http://adamthedad.wordpress.com adam_thedad

    I love you transparency in your faith struggles, it helps make all around you stronger. I wanted to throw my two cents in on this because I heard a very interesting description of predestination.

    Take me son for example. If I put a bowl of broccoli in one hand and a slice of birthday cake in the other. I know without a doubt which one he is going to pick. But he still has a choice.

    So god knows which path you are going to take, but we still make the choices.

  • Donna

    Love what you said about singing little songs of hope to yourself. I did that a lot when I was going through heart-wrenching times, and looking back on it now, I think of those songs as hands reaching out in the dark. At the time I was hurting so much, and was so aware I had no idea what was going on AT ALL! Singing was my way of vocalising my pain to God, calling out to Him in the dark like children call for their parents – are you there? I need you, I’m hurting! Help me!
    Sounds a lot like many of the Psalms!
    He did help me, and He was there, in the dark, walking beside me, keeping me company, even when I couldn’t see Him.
    Just like He will be there with you, holding your hand, carrying you, even when you can’t feel His presence.

    And your Sabbath Soup of the Day sounds particularly scrumptious this week :)

  • http://moss-place.stblogs.org Peony Moss

    Isn’t it a symptom of unbelief and distrust that I cannot believe His love for long?

    No, it’s a symptom of the damage done to your emotional hardware by unhappy past experience with abandonment and conditional love. Belief and trust have nothing to do with feelings. Feelings can be affected by a shortage of serotonin or norepinephrine or sleep or even blood sugar.

    Shouldn’t I get past the point of needing to hit that “Do You Love Me?” button and hoping a little morsel of love pops out–temporarily assuaging my aching need?

    Being reminded that we are loved is a basic human need. Even those people who have been married 60+ years seem to appreciate those little love morsels. Perhaps that’s why Jesus left us the Scriptures and the Sacraments — He knows how much we need those reminders.

    Sometimes I think God must get really annoyed with my constant punching of that “Do You Love Me?” button. I mean, even I’m annoyed with myself!

    Fact: God is infinitely patient.

    If the Good Shepherd is willing to go out after the lost sheep, He’s certainly going to be patient with the sheep who got a bad scare and is now anxious and skittish. And he’s certainly not going to scream at it (“Would you just SHUT UP and STOP BEING SO NEEDY!”)

    When I was under a cloud of depression and anxiety, my brain got stuck on the notion that God didn’t particularly like me. It took a while, but eventually that notion got “overwritten”; when I caught myself thinking along those lines, I would try to consciously correct the thought (I relied on Matthew 18:14 for a while, reminding myself that it had no exception noted for Peony Moss)

    Maybe it would help if, when you pray your Rosary, you meditated on how each Mystery reveals God’s unconditional love for you? That might help in resetting that “default mode” and crowding out that predestination crap.

  • Jenny Clark

    I really want to understand this post better, especially since I would classify myself as “calvinist” (although, I do hate saying that without articulating what I mean, since so many people don’t truly understand the definition of that term), however, from reading – it seems to me more that you may struggle with accepting and feeling confident in your decision for Christ and assurance of salvation, and not predestination, per say. I am making a big assumption here, just based on what I was interpreting from what you wrote, so I am genuinely not assuming I understand what you are saying. Do you think the issue is more with accepting God’s love and being assured of your salvation (and knowing that no one can pluck you from the Lord’s hand, once you are there?) or is the issue really with what the Bible teaches on predestination?

    While I feel confident that God is the only person who changed my heart and gave me a desire to know him and to accept Christ as my savior, I also know that I do evaluate my relationship with him, and Scripture calls us to do this in various ways:

    1 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”

    We also can evaluate our lives and our relationship with Christ by evaluating the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives – some example of which are listed here:

    Galatians 5:22
    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.”

    For me personally – I can not get around not only my personal experience with God changing my heart without any desire on my part, but also the scriptures I read on the issue, such as Ephesians 1:

    “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing gin the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us2 for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”

    There are certainly Christians in the world whose lifestyle or approaches to various theological issues I don’t agree with. It seems like lots of people commenting have had major issues in the past with people who identify themselves as Calvinist, or grew up in traditions that were very “fire and brimstone” type church/pastoral experiences regarding predestination. One challenge for me in growing in my walk and relationship with Christ has been to still allow myself to be open to God’s teaching from Scripture, even when people who I disagree with on a topic (or agree with) have personally been hurtful or have done or taught things in ways that I don’t like. Its kind of like I say to my agnostic/atheist friends – we can’t reject Christianity because of Christians, on a similar note, we should be careful to reject God’s word and teachings that are uncomfortable for us because of people who follow those teachings who may have been hurtful or who we had hurtful experiences with. This is a general note – and not necessarily related exclusively to the idea that some appear to reject predestination in the comments here because of other people/experiences they’ve had with people who believe in predestination.

  • Jennifer Miller (Henne)

    Liz,

    You sound so much like my husband, from the fears you have of God’s unconditional love, to running out of church, and he didn’t even grow up in fellowship. However, he did grow up with a mother who was very controlling and she was good at making it clear that he was never good enough. I try to be understanding and sympathetic so it helps to know that he isn’t the only one with “worries, doubts and fears”. Seeing how these things have effected him, we try to be very careful with our children to show them unconditional love even when they make mistakes. I’m sure you thank God everyday that your children aren’t growing up in fellowship. I know I am thankful we have found a good place to go to church.

  • Krista

    I skimmed by all your previous comments, because I just want to comment on your post.

    I was raised Christian, specifically as a Calvinist, and I am one now. I really hated the Doctrine of Predestination when I was growing up because, I think, I knew some really excitable Calvinists. Something about Calvinism makes us so arrogant and rude…so self-righteous…I hate that! Not all us Calvinists are like that.

    The Bible teaches about predestination throughout, so it can’t be a made-up thing–and a some point, we all have to deal with it, what we rhinitis Binle teaches, how that meshes with our limited perspective, etc. What worked for me during my own version of a conversion experience (even though, yes, I’m a Cradle Christian), was to address the doctrines I dint get or that rub me the wrong way and tell God that I don’t understand, that I need for him to carry this knowledge for me, that I would love it if he helped me to understand BUT that if he never does help me understand it, that’s ok.

    The thing of it is, none of us who belong to God and therefore love his word can deny that there is such a thing as predestination, because it’s right there in the Bible. It would be like a physician saying, “I just don’t believe in the kidney” (or the pancreas, or the toe, or whatever. I just picked a random organ). However, unlike surgeons who must unhesitant gross anatomy to the nth degree, we are not obligated to know and understand everything about Systematic Theology. Parts of it that we just can’t reconcile, we can entrust to God.

    For me, this does not mean that I don’t believe it (I must, because the Bible is the Word of God and authoritative in everything it speaks to!); it just means that I don’t understand and I trust a faithful, loving heavenly Father to understand it for me,

    EE, I’m sorry you’ve known some Ugly Calvinists. That’s hurtful, and it stinks that any Christian would treat another person that way. Keep working hard to know God better and deeper! Keep working to be honest with yourself about your wounds. I’m really impressed by your transparency and honesty–and we Calvinists could take a leaf out of your book. Keep up the good work!

  • http://somewiseguy.com ThatGuyKC

    I don’t know if this will help calm your fears, but here goes: You’re seeking after God is evidence that He DID choose you because we don’t do that w/out the prompting of the Holy Spirit. We love Him because He first loved us and all that. Once you’re chosen you can’t be unchosen. Nothing can take you out of God’s hand and He ain’t a fickle dude.

    I fully expect to be deemed a heretic for this comment, but I say Buh. Ring. It.

    I don’t think the topic of predestination is all that important. GASP!! FIRE & BRIMSTONE!!

    Think about it, regardless of what side of the fence you come down on how does it effect your obedience to the Great Commission or the rest of the Bible? Really? I’m not flippantly dismissing theology (because I think it is important) because I’ve been involved in many heated debates on this very topic.

    I can’t know whether God has chosen/predestined anyone else. It’s my job to love and exemplify Christ to them regardless.

    And I know He did chose me because I believe in Him and desire to love & know Him.

    Did that make any sense or am I just ranting?

  • KR

    I think some of those fears we all share….but the bible never talks about predestination in that way, as a matter of fact I would say that is the wrong way to teach it (those that may have taught you it that way are way off). God does not desire anyone to go to hell, although that doesnt mean ppl wont go there…

  • KR

    Hebrews tells us if we know God in Christ, he will never leave us or forsake us, but I totally relate to the feelings. Its a promise, unconditional love means that God doesnt base his love for you and me based on what we do or dont do for him thats the heart of the gospel. Its all b/c of what he has done for us in Christ; despite how we may feel I don’t think God ever gets tired of our doubts and questions…he simply loves inspite of them…

  • amber

    Good gracious, woman. Have you ever read the Bible??? GOD is LOVE…. DONE.

    • Elizabeth Larson-DiPippo

      How is this helpful?

      • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

        You know, i was wondering the same thing. :)

  • Katy-Anne

    I’m not sure why the Calvinists are on here trying to defend their hateful theology, but nothing amazes me anymore. My question to the Calvinists is: what made you so amazing that God chose you over somebody else? Don’t you see the complete and utter arrogance you have to have to believe that you were such the special snowflake that God chose you? My God is not a sadistic God, creating people solely for the purpose of going to hell. You have to be messed up and arrogant to believe all that stuff.

    • Lacinda

      ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I have done made God choose me to be His child. I AM NOT wonderful, lovely, better-than-anyone-else. That is what is so beautiful about God giving me mercy and salvation. And He offers that salvation to EVERYONE who believes in Him. Yes, I believe in predestination, but predestination does not take away the fact that God is love and that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Predestination, rather, causes me to say humbly, “Thank you, Father, for this salvation you have given–not because of anything great I have done, but because you are great and gracious.”

      • http://arewomenhuman.wordpress.com Grace

        This is exactly kind of Calvinist teaching that destroys people psychologically. The ‘God loves me even though I am a worthless worm’ BS. I reject it. If God exists, and if God loves me, it’s because I am lovable, not because there’s nothing good about me.

  • http://remnantofremnant.blogspot.com priest’s wife

    in the old Baltimore catechism, there’s the question- why did God create me? the answer:
    God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

    Like that old locker poster with the kitten in the tree- “God doesn’t make junk!”

    There’s no room for predestination when we realize that God is all-merciful. I’m sorry you are going through these feelings- God loves you!

  • Kersley

    I work for a ministry where people write in questions and we answer them. The fear of the Calvinist is a fairly common one. I think in some issues it’s good to look at things from God’s point of view, but this particular issue, it’s better to see through our own eyes. You said, “Yes!” It’s done. You’re His.

    He is so much less discerning than we are when it comes to whom He will love and use. Good thing for us, yeah?

  • Christopher

    I started praying to God to teach me His love, and he did most certainly. Now I pray for an ever-increasing love for Him, which for me means I have at last left my terrible childhood behind… hmm, I didn’t realize that quite in that way until just now.

    :)

    • Christopher

      Actually I probably realized it before and forgot it several times. That’s the thing with God, he manages to do wonders with messed up people, which I am certainly one. That’s one thing I learned, that love (God’s for sure, probably good natural love too) gets past thinking and the inability to think. I learned that when I was asking God why he would allow the ONE THING that could get me back on my feet, my mind, to have so much trouble and be so scattered because of depression and all the things I was battling. Then he came in through my heart. Haha – it was so delightfully simple when it happened I started laughing. It still makes me smile how hard I was trying, and how easy it was when he did it.

  • http://lifesewgood.blogspot.com Jessica

    I went to your site because you reviewed by friend, Rebekah’s book, which, by the way, thank you for you nice compliments on it.

    Immediately this post caught my eye. I read it and all of the comments! I was blessed by the many Catholic responses on here, particularly Father Christian. Raised “mostly Calvinist” (though I don’t subscribe now!), I have cried over this doctrine of predestination and I can get all worked up inside over it. I’m 99% sure (!) the way it has been defined by Christians is skewed.

    Israel was God’s chosen people. They were to reflect God and be a blessing to the nations. When Jesus came, their feathers were ruffled because all of a sudden, God opened up the floodgates and they realized that it wasn’t just about them.

    We may be chosen to represent God in our world as light and love. As said before, “God is love.” Hopefully we do not miss the point and somehow believe that God doesn’t care about the rest of Creation, lest someday He return and we get knocked off our high horses and realize we failed to understand that “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,” (Ex. 34:6).

    Again, loved & resonated with your post and appreciated the other comments posted. It’s interesting to see different viewpoints.

    • http://rebekah-outnumbered@blogspot.com Rebekah

      I had to comment on Jessica’s strand because we grew up in the same church and had similar experiences with Calvinist doctrine. It actually took me a full decade to “heal” from the ways this doctrine was interpreted to me.

      That said, I have finally come to a point that I rest in peace with my doubt. I have decided that while some people have the spiritual gift of faith….I do not. And that that is OK. I had to finally get to that point to prevent my mental breakdown. I view my times of doubt as not a lack of faith, but as the prodding from the Spirit to dig deeper. I dig deeper and rest in knowing that God loves his whole creation…not just a specific group…but everyone and everything. And I trust that my struggle with doubt will not shake this love.

  • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

    Describe a God who is anything other than an unchanging, unwavering, intimately personal God of love and mercy and Christianity immediately becomes a horrible religion, worse than many others.

    A personal, almighty God who is anything other than love (and a love that transcends our experience) is an evil, tyrant God who might be worthy of fear, but never worship or love.

    It’s really as simple as that to me. But then I’m comfortable in the language and perspective of more religions than Christianity. And I guess I never labored under the presupposition that all the different Christian groups were necessarily somehow describing the same God. They don’t.

  • http://feemail.wordpress.com/ Fiona

    Hi Elizabeth

    I have had the same insecurities most of my life.

    One day my toddler daughter picked up my hot hair straightners and blistered her finger. As I poured cold water on it, feeling like the worst mother alive, she kept repeating something that I couldn’t quite make out. Then I realised she was saying through her tears, “Do you still love me?” She was worried I’d stopped loving her!!!???!!!

    I realised that’s how I must sound to God. And I understood a little bit more His love for me and the nature of it.

    So humbling.

    God bless, Fiona

  • http://www.ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com Young Mom

    I feel this too! I am contemplating one of my many nightmares about God hating me, they look stupid in the daylight, because rationally I don’t really care. But it’s still terrifying at night when I wake up sure that God condemned me from before all time. Predestination was the first HUGE fight my husband and I ever had, we had just lost our first baby and he said that children of christian’s must be predestined to heaven somehow, even though it’s not doctrine, and I just couldn’t handle the idea that our baby may have been predestined to hell. This comment could turn into a post, so I’m going to stop now.

  • http://www.brookieblogs.blogspot.com Brooklynn

    It is interesting to me that you have this fear of being “chosen” for salvation when that is the very emotion that Calvin wished to alleviate with his doctrine.
    Calvin saw people who were very worried about their salvation- imagine hundreds of churchgoers wondering if their lives were holy enough or if one of their unknown sins would damn them forever.
    Calvin’s response to this was the doctrine of election (predestination). This doctrine was formulated to assure people that salvation rested in God alone. Nothing we do can change God’s gift of salvation for us- He is totally sovereign in that respect.

    Now people see this doctrine and worry about if they are chosen to go to Hell. Calvin would be very sad to see this, I believe. After all, if would be obvious to Calvin that you are a Christian (and therefore elected, forever, to be with God) because you have the gift of faith. You love Christ and accept Christ’s love and share it with others. God’s love is transforming and reconciling. Do you feel that you have experienced that in your life? (I see that love working through you!)

    That is Calvinism at its most pure. It is not to scare to or to make you question if your are in the elect or the damned. It is to reassure you that no matter what you do, or wherever you go, God loves you and your salvation is always guaranteed by His loving sovereignty.

    • http://www.seeprestonblog.com Preston Yancey

      And what would Calvin say if I were to express great distress over having been chosen? Would that I were able to decline for the sake of someone else to know this joy. But I imagine the response would be that God did not play a game of quotas in this, but Paul spoke in Romans, the go-to for much Calvinist theology, that he would wish to be damned for the sake of the salvation of his fellow Jews. What if I, at my best and deepest, wish to be damned to for the sake of another. How is a system in which neither I nor they have agency, to answer this heart cry of burdened desire for the world? So that, as Peter wrote, I would emulate that nature of God which is “long-suffering so that none would be lost.”

      • Elena

        Preston, what exactly do you mean?

        Elizabeth, I feel for you.

        • http://www.seeprestonblog.com Preston Yancey

          If I were to accept a Calvinist understanding of the world, to go as far as to subject my own agency to being confined to passive acceptance of something already planned, not as coauthor in a story that God is writing with me individually and is ultimately Authoring throughout the whole of history, then what am I to do when I come to the question of not wanting to be chosen? Not because I want to be without God, but because I am willing to be without God if it were that someone else would not be. Paul says something similar, though much more so, about his longing for his fellow Jews. So I am trying to understand how someone like me, someone who can’t be happy with being chosen for the group if not everyone got an invite to the party, who knows, if not understands, the reality and the eternality of Hell, who knows, if not understands, the fullness of God’s unfailing love as well as His justice, but would give away my invite at once if it meant someone else could be invited, fits in the equation?
          Because I have to live in a world with agency and co-authorship. Not because I need control, but so that I can give it up and find myself in Him. So that everyone has the hope of that.
          It is the great, baffling, wonder that Mary could have said no to Gabrielle and ultimately to God. The crossroads helps us understand exactly how much God is in control. Not because He has to force the story, but because He is writing a Story that can be perfect even with imperfect co-authors.

          • Elena

            OK, I think I understand where you’re coming from (and if I read you correctly, we’re on the same page). I might ask you about this in person one day, as we are in fact fellow Baylorites.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Well, this doesn’t make me feel any better, really. I mean, if this is true–then there ARE some people God predestines to perdition–and that strikes me as particularly cruel. I can’t really believe in a God like that. But thank you for clarifying the doctrine.

      • Katy-Anne

        God isn’t like that and Calvinism is just a cruel doctrine, and I’m shocked to see so many people spouting it off.

      • http://thehomespunlife.com Sisterlisa

        Elizabeth, I had all the same questions and concerns you are sharing here and I sobbed one night..asking God “Who are you anyway??” and He replied back, “Who do you say that I am?” to which I replied through sobs, “You are Agape” and He said, “Then look for Agape”. The unconditional love. I know who he is and I won’t allow others to persuade me otherwise. He adores you more than you can imagine..just as you are. And even if you feel like you lack faith in any area..he is still faithful to us. Is there a measuring cup to determine how much faith it takes to be loved by God? There’s no way we can have “enough” faith..But He loves us anyway..knowing full well that we lack the ability and knowledge to understand all that He is. He loves you.

      • KR

        Number one, Calvin didnt “formulate” this doctrine like he’s the one who made it. The word election is used multiple times in the NT to simply describe those who have received the gospel. The bible does not tell us how we are elected, it simply uses it in a way to describe those who are already his. So if you have trusted Christ you are one of the elect, you dont ever stop being one.

        Secondly, God never elects people to hell; respectfully, it is a wrong deduction to assume that if he elects some to heaven he elects some to hell. NO WHERE is that ever mentioned in the Bible, actually the opposite is taught, “God is not willing that any should perish,” 1 Peter. Total depravity basically helps us understand election, we are responsible for our sin and its penalty not God, to say that he elects some to hell is like saying God causes you to sin, which is extremely contradictory to his character and all that the Bible teaches.

    • Lacinda

      Thank you for taking time to shed more light on what Calvin was actually saying, Brooklyn.

  • http://www.seeprestonblog.com Preston Yancey

    Dear Elizabeth, I think if you’re wrestling with this you already have your answer. If there was a silly thing such as predestination for wrath, which I find rather troubling and a bit foolish, than I think not that your thoughts would rush so often to the things of Him. Perhaps that should be your security for a little while, until this is no longer your struggle: be secure with your struggling, because it means you still care, and you in the very least know He always does. That overcomes enough.

  • Fr. Brendan

    Elizabeth, I always approach comment lists as if the other comments don’t exist.

    Your deep seated insecurity haunted me for a long time, as if some monk in 692, while copying the Gospel of John by hand came across a little parenthetical comment that he didn’t understand, so he left it out. I always feared the original was, “For God so loved the world (except Brendan) that He gave His only begotten Son…”.

    It took me a long time to get over that feeling, and what helped the best was the Eucharist, Confession, and the other Mysteries of the Church. I know God loves you, and I know that He loves me, too.

    • http://www.blessedisthekingdom.com Fr. Christian Mathis

      Thanks for your words Fr. Brendan. It seems all to easy to add those parenthetical statements to the Scriptures, or to simply pick and choose what we want. When one reads the entire Bible and takes it to heart, it is impossible to find anything but a loving God who wants us to share in his life.

  • http://presentlyhuman.wordpress.com presentlyhuman

    I became friends with a family that believed in predestination, and it really messed up my already shaky faith. Only the “elect” were saved, and the “elect’s” salvation was known by the way they lived their life. If your life and beliefs didn’t exactly line up, you weren’t a “weak” Christian, but rather a “false convert” and weren’t saved by god.

    If predestination is true, god didn’t pick me. He doesn’t want me. My life never fit any definition of Christianity, or at least Christian culture, no matter how much I wanted it to. I wanted to love god, but ultimately couldn’t feel anything for him, and no amount of praying, no amount of wanting, ever changed that. So if predestination is true, the only conclusion I can come to is that, because I couldn’t experience anything of god, it means that he wants nothing to do with me, and salvation for me is utterly unattainable.

    I feel like, if this is god, then I don’t want him anyway. Eternal separation from a god who plays favorites? Heck yes. With a devil whose role is to be god’s enemy? I’m an enemy of that god too!

    I’m not a Christian anymore, but I would hope that if god is so loving and understanding, and if he looks at motives and such, then he would understand why rejecting Christianity was all I could do, and based on the mind and life he gave me, this is where I am. And if he doesn’t, then Christian or not, it wouldn’t have mattered – there is no salvation for me.

  • http://www.chron.com/channel/houstonbelief/commons/theologyinheels.html Lauren

    Elizabeth, as a Calvinist with a degree from a Reformed seminary, let me assure you that if you ARE “walking proof that predestination is real,” it’s because, as best I can tell, you WERE predestined to belong to God. You DO belong to Him.
    One of the most comforting things about predestination is that God loves us not because of our performance or kindness or even our faith, but because He loves us. It’s hard because I’m pretty sure we aren’t promised ever in the Bible that we will for sure FEEL like we belong to God and are loved by Him. That doesn’t change the fact that we are. For me, often the fear these days is not that I am damned, but that God has forgotten about the fact that my body is not working right and I am in great pain a lot of the time. Like, He listens when I pray for my friends or my students or my sister, or even for myself as long as it’s not about my health problems, but as soon as those come up He’s not paying attention. What is TRUE about me and God is not how I feel, because I have some messed up feelings, and that forces me to realize that trust and faith can happen even when I don’t feel like it. But my faith isn’t strong enough to hold me anyway – it’s only the Person my faith is IN that is strong enough.
    I’m sure you’ve heard the illustration about sitting in a chair being like faith – that you can talk all day about the sound construction and safety of the chair, but until you are willing to sit in it (and do) you don’t really have faith? Well, that’s all well and good, but what if the chair can’t hold you? It’s not going to make a hoot of a difference how much I believe the chair will hold me – I am going down. The important thing about the situation is the chair. I can dip my toe in the water – gradually lower myself into it, test it out, throw a book at it – and see if it can handle the pressure. Thankfully, Jesus can.

  • Jane

    I don’t always concur with mainstream Christianese, or with the anti-feminist ‘men’ tality and definitely not in support of phallic-centric cult worship thinking–so I don’t post here much,

    but one, Elizabeth your concern with predestination touched my heart because I can so relate to that fear, and so I want to just share a few things, but Before I do, Presentlyhuman, you wouldn’t have responded nor even ‘read’ here IF God predestined you to hell…the Fact that you are asking, what LOVE is, is evidence, that LOVE is pulling you.

    I do not believe in the traditional doctrines, this from After reading and re-reading and re-reading the Bible in it’s fullness, not cherry picking and not in the lens of religion. So what I may have to say here, will not be approved of by many, so be it. I am not Christian in the traditional sense of the word either, I do however believe in Jesus, in the Cross, and in the allegorical spiritual mysteries of the Word.

    I questioned that whole doctrine of predestination, long ago, here’s what I came to conclude, that yes there is a predestination, but THAT the predestination isn’t selection of people, like in some Race seed type of way [in my Strong opinion Calvinism is the same ideological seed of Neo-Nazism that goes Way back, to the ancient cults and in today's Christian Identity cults, with the taking literal interpretation of Cain and Seth's 'seed' or 'sperm', which Was the belief of numerous ancients including today--those that believed they were 'special' elect of God, etc., which they All did, for their 'gods' so that I believe is the driving force behind yes, Calvinism. It also relates to some of the beliefs out there that humans were made with fallen angels [that's one of the beliefs floating around], or by numerous gods and Those beliefs come from the ancient Sumer religion.

    God [Israel's God] takes Hebrews out of Egypt, makes them His chosen, of course IF they choose, IMPERATIVE WORD THERE, CHOOSE, to obey His laws and statutes, He says I now as Heaven and Earth as my witness give you choice, life or death, etc., in OT…that relays CHOICE which is opposite of predestined such as being hand picked robot. Also the CHOICE in the first example or allegory, which was in fact Garden of Eden with the tree, there were Two trees, meaning CHOICE.

    The predestination is WHAT happens after CHOICE is made…IF you choose to say no to God then it’s Predestined that you will suffer hell, [NT, OT that word means grave, it only takes new meaning 300 years later by Constantine, Catholics] but anyway, hell is a frame of mind, meaning, it’s what is Inside a person, just like the Kingdom of God is inside a person, what that person CHOOSES, is what that person WILL BECOME and after death this is eternal.

    God is life and Love, so if one CHOOSES LOVE [to be LOVE, a being] then that is what they become, it is PREDESTINED…

    if a person like the rich man CHOOSES NOT LOVE [and it was choice, Lazarus laid at his gate...meaning the rich man HAD CHOICE], then that person becomes hell–remember, that rich man had NO REMORSE in Hell because THAT IS WHAT HE WAS…it is PREDESTINED, that man Still had a very classist ‘supermacist’ ‘in fact a Calvinist attitude, which was that Lazarus was by ‘divine lot’ [a Catholic Ancient belief] meant to be a slave, servant, poor, with dogs, and the rich man by divine lot was meant to be Above, including his ‘brothers’ which is All he asked Abraham to warn, to hell with all the rest of the world, because this man in fact was an Elitist, a snob, a man who chose to love only himself and his ‘kind’ [again, that whole elect mentality] which is the anti-thesis of God and of Abraham…the reason Israel and Judah fell was pride, [further into OT] and that pride being the belief that they were ‘chosen’ based on birth, rather than by Grace, by God’s riches and mercy,

    and it is Predestined that those who choose to refuse love, will become hell, will become a being hardened, by constant refusing God’s love, instruction, wooing, etc., Because it’s like physics, if you plant turnips you don’t get a crop of bananas.

    That is predestination…Ezekiel says, IF one CHOOSES to Repent, re-pen-t, to turn, away from wickedness God will forgive, make as white as snow, etc. but if a good man CHOOSES to Repent, re-pen-t from good and starts doing wickedness the good that man does God will not remember…that man will die IF he doesn’t repent and do good,

    that IS predestination because GOD says it…he lays out the physics, Paul says, you are elect and chosen Because you choose to believe and stay faithful to the end. [Ezekiel] The slave Hagar and free love [Sarah] which btw, That allegory in of itself PROVES the predestination ‘you are powerless no choice only those elites chosen pre-birth to be False Because if that was the case, then you’d be worshiping on beliefs that its’ by noble birth and slaves are doomed…slaves are forced to give a ‘fake’ love, free women love because they Choose to love, out of free will. Those who Choose to say Yes to God’s love as free will women [or men] are predestined to be loved by God back, etc.,

    just like how marriages Should work. As for Judas, another allegory, of what happens when a person Chooses mammon and betrays God or betrays Love, a son of perdition, a son of hell, hell creates that person, that person chooses hell over God…hell state of mind, what that person chooses to focus on, for whatever reason, IF that person chooses that route or path and Continues in persistence then that person is Predestined to die, without love, etc.,

    God knowing human nature and by knowing our backgrounds and personality knows, before hand…just like we know how our children will most likely act or react, Usually, we don’t have the years of experience that God has, sure…so God tells us, do this, because I know you see [OT, Genesis, they now know good and evil LIKE US--another clue there], what will Happen to you, the Decay if you go that route and it’s predestined that IF you choose that way, it will kill you, from the inside, that is what you choose to become,

    if you choose My way, you will be transformed, etc. IT is predestined like that…

    layman’s terms to explain I know but this is how I see it…now works, is what happens With your choice [James], those that Have true faith, faith that works by what? LOVE, will have works that follow–it’s a growth, a transformation, till Christ be formed in you Paul says…but it’s by Choice,

    remember, many who walked with Paul later chose the world, they chose because what? They loved the world–so they are predestined to become just what God says because the world, that type of love Kills you inside, because it’s rotted, it’s corrupt, it is the anti-thesis of God, of Life, of Love,

    how do we Love God if we Fear constantly? Fear has torment…the author of Fear which is opposite of Love cannot be God–not the same as fear used in OT which means, knowing God’s power, having that healthy fear…respect, awe, etc.,

    but Fear in a Ritual Abuse Luciferian sort of way…that says one must always be terrified of God because they might be predestined to hell or if they fall they are damned or if they aren’t perfect–that isn’t God,

    that’s the religion of Molech. The bondage, allegory of Hagar and Sarah, faith or law which brings death because it thrives on Fear which is opposite of Love–it’s what Slaves do, because slaves are terrified….etc.

    But to Love Him is to Obey His commandments, and His commandments are Love one Another,

    to Choose and be transformed into Love. Not just love of ‘own’ which is what the heathens [unbelievers] do as Jesus said…which That would be, elitism, that belief the rich man had…which is, yes, that whole ‘elect’ ideology that has taken part of scripture, and turned it into a clever ‘chosen at birth’ by some pre-birth choice, therefore we’re really just robots and slaves,

    which Would make God the author of sin IF that were the case, and if That were the case, then Why bother with any of it? Why bother with the Cross, or with Jesus, why not just have one set pre-chosen to eternal hell and the other to a jewelry box in heaven of rich–a belief that is Imperialist, Cold, without feeling, a belief like that of the rich man that Ironically Jesus says, winds up in hell.

    A belief that justifies genocide, Nazism, male supremacy, infanticide, the list goes on and on and on…

    all things that God says, do not do, IF predestination as it’s been taught by mostly white imperialist ‘elitists’ is true, then God would be a terrorist, a monster, a ego maniac narcissist who only cares about choosing a few to stroke His ego at the expense of millions created who didn’t ask to be who suffer eternally in hell right next door so that those precious ‘elect lucky ones’ can enjoy heaven in a jewelry box Which by the way IF one was to take the same Literally–then no woman is in heaven either because Revelations strictly says Sons of God.

    Either the gnostics are right and women are converted into men therefore basically saying females are evil [and so the female image of God is too] OR women like in Islam all go to hell anyway–so Why even bother with it at all?

    So we see we have a problem when we take Literal meanings, like the predestination one, and turn them into whole doctrines, because Obviously there is enough opposites or contradictions all through the Word on Every issue to relay that there is something else…why would God even bother with I present to you as Heaven and Earth as my witness, Choose Life, why would you die Israel, or the in NT all the warnings about not taking Christ lightly, etc., [Hebrews]

    it’s simple, Jesus doesn’t want a slave, HE wants a Bride who Wants to love Him,

    IF Heaven, was a marriage of forced slavery, then that would be HELL, not HEAVEN, that would be forced sex slavery, and there is enough in Bible to show how much God hated that, HE tolerated it because Man chose that…but the predestination, the effects was the same, it wound up in Disaster, just like God told Moses it would.

    I think more than anything that heaven and hell are mirror images, like a lot of things in Bible allegories, of what and who we are, in this Fish School of Life, that really what it is is looking within, looking without how WE are, WHO we are, and What we really want, love, to do that is to be not afraid but to look at truth,

    and to Choose, we either Fear love and be hell because that is what that does, or we Choose Love and face Fear and become Love, which is God, to be transformed, into His Image and His likeness.

    Which is Heaven…

    and that the real heaven and hell is already in side of us, we Choose one or the other, and it’s a war, Judas chose hell, Peter too fell [and I believe there is reason for both of those stories] but the difference is, you see, is that Peter chose love and to keep on going because his love for Jesus was stronger than his hate, his battle with hell, whereas Judas like the rich man, chose money or anger, hell, and after realizing what he had done, rather than repenting,

    he chose to die, to kill himself, because it was easier than Love, [this is btw about his choice, his refusal to believe in love, not out of mental illness or pain to severe, like being driven to it from a brutal gang rape or something...I want to interject that because I do believe some suicides are actual being driven by souls already murdered by horrors] but anyway,

    clue to that IS the pattern of Judas’s behavior Before his betrayal of Christ and knowing how slaves then did betray other slaves because they simply had no love…it was to each his own [historical fact of slaves in that region under Roman occupation] and yes they were creations of perdition, hell, Roman occupation and enslavement Was hell, but one could Choose to either assimilate Into that hell and become like the oppressor OR choose to be transformed into Love, and resist the hate, etc.,

    and predestination, is simply the formula, physics, of the law, you sow you reap, you CHOOSE. The results of those choices are predestined cause and effect,

    well anyway, that’s how I concluded it…
    and it is a daily battle, because Once you choose Love, really choose it, you really see the war with the forces of hell, you go against the grain, so to speak.

    Satan use to torment me with this a lot [I know it has a lot to do with the childhood RA] and one day, I just said, you know Fine God, send me to hell, I’ll love you from there and I refused to be fearful of it anymore–this was when I began to deconstruct a Lot of doctrines, etc., then I got to point where if That’s what it is then who needs to worry about Satan when there is God..but I knew, something was Off about this, AND believing in those FEAR driven doctrines did more to make me yes a child of perdition who hated Everyone and Everything,

    gee no wonder…it’s what it is, a doctrine of fear, torment, hatred…the antithesis of Jesus…it’s that Leaven [the other leaven is the opposite side of the pole, relativism and no love there either, no fear/respect of God, self centered/narcissism, of Herod, etc], both however have to do with power, and they predestined into beings of cold blooded hell things,

    because LOVE can’t thrive nor grow there, if God is Love, then God can’t BE there.

    I also don’t believe in ‘unconditional’ love, God has conditions, and they all have to do with Loving, so the whole once saved always saved, I can be a rat and crap and abuse but I’m elect will still go to heaven,

    is a lie from the Pits of hell. It’s the rich man who thought the poor man the angels laid at the gate, was a nothing…he had no compassion, the poor man would have taken a Crumb,

    so God has conditions alright, Jesus had conditions, He yes saves by Grace, but that Grace, to grow in Love, is to change US, into that same Love,

    and like a free woman, she Chooses to love by choice, BECAUSE she loves, not because she is forced to, by birth, by slavery, etc.

    IF you love me YOU will obey me Jesus says…IF [refers to choice] you love, LOVE…

    if it was predestined HE would have said YOU will love me and YOU will obey me because I programmed you too

    that sounds more to me like the religions of cults, of totalitarians, LOVE would not need to program and force LOVE, only insecurity and narcissism would need to do that. IF God were That petty and That small, He wouldn’t have bothered with the Cross or with Jesus, or with wooing any of us. Only a tyrannical dictator would do otherwise, and IF that be the case, then that heaven of the tyrannical dictator would be a BDSM type of hell,

    run by a sadist.

    And I think we know who the sadist is, it sure as heck, isn’t God.

    Jane

  • Lacinda

    EE, I know that where you’re at is such a tough place. I struggled with many of the same fears in my past. My prayer is that you will know God’s presence so sweetly and that His continuing, gentle love will bring comfort and peace to your heart.

  • http://deodate.wordpress.com/ Andie

    I’m sure that I’m not saying anything new here, but if you were predestined, then you wouldn’t have the gift of free will. I believe that it is us who choose where we go for eternity. God is our Father, what father wouldn’t want his children with him? And don’t worry about ‘nagging’ God, he can take it. After all, he asked that same question to Peter three times! Thanks for you honesty, Elizabeth, and for stating out loud what many of us fear.

  • Pamela

    I find myself having to hit the “do you love Me?” button rather often. Which is actually an improvement over the “why bother to hit the button, there’s no way You could love me” mind-set I used to have. I understand what you’re feeling, E/E. At least, as much as anyone ever “understands” someone else. Lord bless your day!!

  • Laura

    God sent his only child to die so you, personally, could be saved. He chose to stay out of love, FOR YOU, in the form of bread… He loves you even more than you love your children (unthinkable, right?) He wants you to join Him in heaven and He’ll never turn His back on you. That’s just the devil wanting you to doubt how much God loves YOU! Don’t listen to him. There’s no love on earth that can compare to His love.

  • Joshua

    Boy have I been here!

    I’ve been in the state where I am completely unsure of God’s love or if I’d “make it” into heaven. It is a difficult frame of mind to be in as someone who claims to be a Christian. I mean, how could I tell people, “I THINK I’m saved… but I’m not sure,” or, “Come to Christ, believe in Him and you MIGHT get to heaven to serve a capricious and judgemental God – maybe you’ll even like it there…” This was something I struggled with for a most of my life.

    So, one day a few years ago I was mowing the lawn and letting my mind wander a bit and a thought occurred to me. What if God really is the PERFECT judge of my life. Not a harsh judge or a bad judge or a lenient judge or a nice judge but the PERFECT and infallible one.

    I considered that for a moment as I rounded the corner of my lawn and then had another thought. If He is the PERFECT judge of my life, who am I to argue with that? How can I do anything but accept His perfect judgement. It is perfect after all…

    Two strange, frightening, and wonderful thoughts followed that up. First, “what if God judged me worthy of Hell? Could I really argue?” My answer was that I couldn’t. I couldn’t argue with a perfect judge over my fate. What is strange was that I was OK with that! How strange and how freeing! Now, of course I wasn’t ok with going to Hell. Nobody wants that for themselves (I hope). But I had just trusted that His judgement was perfect. I had let go of my need to convince God to be kind to me. This one thought placed Him on His judgement throne and acknowledged his RIGHT to rule regardless of how I felt about it (I don’t always like His decisions but I acknowledge that they are the right ones).

    Which brings about the second thought. Where the first was strange and frightening (it’s frightening to put your life into the hand of God and trust that he will do what is right with it – even if what is right is unpleasant) the second thought was strange and wonderful. God humbled himself and died for me. The perfect judgement I had submitted myself to in the first thought (judgement that quite frankly WOULD have landed me in Hell) was paid for. I had submitted myself to the judgement of God trusting that He was perfect and that I could not argue with the results. And the results were that He saw my perilous state and paid for my punishment with his own life. How could I not acknowledge His love for me any longer?

    So now, whenever I am in doubt about His love. Whenever I am concerned about being one of the elect or if I’m predestined for heaven or hell; whenever I WORRY about these things – I think about the thoughts I had while mowing the lawn. I know that he is a perfect judge, that I am helpless before Him, that I am worthy of Hell, and that He died for me (already) because he loves me so much. Knowing all this, I am free to act in response to the love He has already demonstrated. I am no longer enslaved into trying to earn it. I can rest in the abundance of His love instead of endless anxious wondering…

  • http://www.justwhatimean.blogspot.com Emily

    Wow.

    Sometimes I forget that I’m a recovering calvinist and religious addict, and then I read this and all of the childhood/recent end-of-the-world dreams flash in my mind, my body goes into physical terror mode, my heart breaks for the friends who walked away from Love because they came to believe they weren’t chosen despite their seeking, and I have to spend the next week pushing that same button.

    I don’t understand how my siblings can love that god still, how my parents can scoff at people (they don’t realize) think exactly the way I do, or how much therapy it will take to really BELIEVE I am lovable. (Because the “what if they’re wrong” disc spins so much better on people who tell me I AM loved than people who say I might or might not be.)

    But I know I have an adoring Father I’m just starting to learn about. I have a family who understands me even though we have never lived in the same house. And I keep showing up.

    Thanks for always, and especially today, just being honest about how hard it is to be a human, a woman, a mother, a loved one. Together, we have a great hope.