Consumeristic Mindset Perpetuates Poverty & Pornography

“do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.” –Philippians 2:4

While in Bolivia, I was convicted by how difficult it was for me to look at the problem of poverty. It was humbling in the most intimately embarrassing way for me to admit that I refused to look at poverty because it meant admitting my own misuse of money.

The United States is just 5% of the world’s population and yet we consume 25% of the world’s fossil fuel resources. In 2002, new U.S. homes were 38% bigger than in 1975, despite having fewer people per household. Something is not right, here, and I am a part of that problem.

I feel good giving aid to the poor. But examining the causes of poverty is uncomfortable because it forces me to look in the mirror and acknowledge my own complicity in the vicious cycles that keep people trapped in poverty.

I think there’s a connection, here, to pornography. For one thing, both poverty and pornography ruin lives. Poverty literally ends physical life and pornography destroys relationships.

It’s easy for me, as a Christian, to decry pornography. But it’s more difficult to examine the ways I’ve perpetuated the proliferation of a pornographic mindset. Some of you thought I was being judgmental when I wrote about the Pornification of Marriage. If that’s true, it’s only because I’m asking myself the same questions. I’m re-examining the ways I’ve approached sexuality with a self-centered, consumeristic attitude.

Henri Nouwen writes:

The way one lives in the body, the way one relates to, cares for, exercises, and uses one’s own and other people’s bodies, is of crucial importance for one’s spiritual life…The abuse of the body–whether it be psychological (e.g. instilling fear), physical (e.g., torture), economic (e.g., exploitation) or sexual (e.g., hedonistic pleasure seeking)–is a distortion of true human destiny: to live in the body eternally with God. The loving care given to our bodies and the bodies of others is therefore a truly spiritual act… ["The Essential Henri Nouwen," p. 38, 39, 40]

Despite being a devout Christian for all my life, I’ve unwittingly adopted certain pornographic ideas about sex and it’s telling how those ideas have been influenced by a consumeristic mindset.

Here are a few excuses I’ve used and it’s scary to me how the same excuses can be used for how I use my money and how I engage in sex:

How I spend my money is a matter of personal preference.

Sexuality is a matter of personal preference.

How I spend my money doesn’t affect other people.

My sexual preferences don’t affect other people.

As long as it doesn’t hurt anybody, any sexual act is OK.

As long as it doesn’t hurt anybody, anything I buy is OK.

One thing Bolivia taught me is that how I live my life, how I spend my money, how I spend my time really matters! Furthermore, my life definitively affects other people. The only question is: am I adding to the suffering of the poor or am I creating positive change?

I think perhaps the same idea can be applied to sexuality. What I do in the privacy of my bedroom does affect the world outside it. The only question is: am I adding to the suffering of the world outside my bedroom or am I creating positive change?

It is simply untrue that what we do in the privacy of our bedroom or out in the market does NOT affect other people. We are social beings, made for community. Whether we like it or not, we are interdependent.

I have to be honest, I hate where all this is leading me. It’s way too inconvenient.

I wish I could go back to just cavorting freely in my bedroom without ever thinking about how my actions affect others. I wish I could go back to shopping sprees at the mall without ever thinking about how my buying affects others.

But I can’t.

I affect you and you affect me.

And all of us affect future generations.

How do we create positive change?

This entry was posted in Faith, Love/Sex Advice, World Vision: Bolivia. Bookmark the permalink.
  • http://hereisthechurch.wordpress.com Allie

    I think my favorite quote from my parish priest is “The Christian choice is the heroic choice.” I think that applies here.

    I’ll be interested in what others have to say about this. I suspect I’m too young to have a good grasp on what it means to have a positive change. ^_^ But if I had to hazard a guess, I would say the general blanket rule would be to make *all* decisions with others in mind. I’m not sure I have good specific examples though…

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      That’s a great quote, thanks for sharing it Allie.

  • http://remnantofremnant.blogspot.com priest’s wife

    I hear you- I am not the ‘greenest’ person- but I did find myself infuriated by a toothbrush that was triple-wrapped in plastic…WHY? So the brush could be displayed perfectly. Why do farmers use the massive amounts of chemicals they do- not just to stop killing insects? So the apples LOOK perfect. So- I am slowly going towards a simpler lifestyle….not a Wholefoods-rich-white-person’s lifestyle

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      I like what Shane Claiburn says about eating vegan, organic, etc. He says he eats “freegan”–whatever is cheapest and available. :)

    • Handsfull

      As the wife of an apple orchard manager, I can assure you that the reason the farmers spray so that the apples look good, is because if they don’t, nobody buys them. The big supermarket chains have HUGE specification lists that need to be met before they’ll buy the fruit.
      Also, out here in New Zealand (have no idea what the American orchards/farms are like) a lot less sprays are being used, and when they are used they are used in a very targeted way. 20yrs ago the fruit was sprayed with waaaaay more chemicals than it is now.
      I know this is off-subject, but just had to put my 2c worth in!

  • http://remnantofremnant.blogspot.com priest’s wife

    …just had to write- it’s interesting that ‘BlogHer’ has ‘meatless mondays’- wouldn’t want to be too Catholic and encourage Meatless Fridays ;) …reminds me of Shakespeare’s Falstaff who would “never eat fish on Fridays”

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      I remember Oprah doing a Meatless Monday thing. Maybe that’s where that trend came from?

      • joy

        I don’t think there was anything anti-Catholic about choosing Monday instead of Friday–meatless Monday is alliterative and catchy.

  • Sarah

    Still not buying it (pardon the pun) aye.

    What you do with your husband doesn’t affect me at all.

    You’re asking yourself some big, uncomfortable questions and the answers seem scary and that can lead to MASSIVE leaps in logic and paranoid conclusions.

    I hope some of those answers include a broader understanding of the myriad ways people express themselves sexually. (And I don’t like the implications of your use of ‘preference’ when it comes to homosexual couples). At the moment I think your conclusions are coming from a place of fear. I’m not afraid of the way I chose to express myself sexually and I hope you can come to the same place yourself one day.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Thanks for letting me know that my conclusions are paranoid, massive leaps in logic and coming from a place of fear. That was very helpful.

      • Tara S

        Well, the “if only you were as emotionally healthy as meeee” argument is a really tidy way to dismiss something without discussion. And seriously, EE, you are really harshing our buzz. I love you for it. :-)

      • Tina B

        I do see how my spending hurts others (pollution, over use of resources, sweat shops….) but would like some examples of how my private sex life effects others unless I’m pushing legislation that makes everyone say I’m ok.

        • http://nicholasmyra.blogspot.com Nicholas

          Well, if you’re a materialist, it doesn’t. If you believe in Spiritual Pollution, that’s another story.

          • http://bramboniusinenglish.wordpress.com brambonius

            I would ask you to clarify your views on ‘spiritual pollution’, but I think I’ve asked you enough questions lately…

  • KatR

    Sorry, still don’t get this.

    The consumerism example, yes. That makes sense. But unless you have been maxing out your credit card at Sex Toys R Us every month, good old fashioned Catholic sanctioned cavorting in the bedroom does not affect the poor one iota. Neither does new fangled non Catholic sanctioned cavorting, for that matter.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      I guess I think it’s interesting that many of the same excuses used to justify careless consumerism are also used to justify sexual preferences. I’m asking if there’s a connection. Maybe there’s not, but it still intrigues me.

      • KatR

        Someone can definitely have a “consumerist” mentality when it somes to sex. Treating people as objects or possessions, being selfish, etc, etc. That I can see.

        Can you clarify what you are talking about when you reference “sexual preferences?” That is a phrase I identify with homosexuality, and the idea that someone is gay because they are selfish or greedy is one I disagree with, to say the least.

        • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

          I’m referring to pornographic ideas about sexuality–as discussed in the “pornification of marriage” post–not homosexuality. I thought the phrase identified with homosexuality was “sexual orientation”? Apparently, I’m clueless on the exact lingo. :/

          • KatR

            Thanks. I think “orientation” might be the more recent term, but I wanted to make sure I was clear on what you were referencing.

      • Robyn

        I think you are just trying to be less “self-centered” / “selfish” in all areas of your life. Is that right?? I think we are “all” “sinners”. That’s why we got kicked out of the Garden and from God’s presence, I think. Because we are sinners and sin, I think all of our actions affect others. That’s why the world is in such a mess. But, what one may be convicted of, another may not, so therefor those instances are not necessarily sin, just differences (if indeed, God really did not call that act a sin)……..But, other things “are” sin, I think. So, since we all have differences in our attempts to interpret what God has “really” said, I think this leads to the confusion and arguing among people. For example, if homosexuality and other sins in heterosexuality are sins, then there are consequences. The first thought that comes to mind is sexually transmitted diseases which have been around since early time I guess. Look at pictures of people with diseases. I’ve seen some horrid ones on the internet. HPV comes to mind. Think of all the other diseases and wrongs in the world that come from our sin: Eating poorly affects our bodies; Me staying on the Internet too much affects my ability to do things around the house that I should; People’s or Nation’s greed affects others like was mentioned–pollution, etc. The older I get, too, I see how America has exploited other Nations. I’m saddened and embarrassed!! I’m not as eloquent and as good at getting my thoughts across——But, I do definitely think our actions affect others, perhaps even everyone??? Sometimes, it is just hard to define what exactly is and isn’t sin VS. what God is convicting another of and not me (with it not being sin)??? Clear as Mud, that was my phrase for the day!!!! (when I got an answer to a question about end times stuff–IFB KJV non pre-trib. vs. all the “Left Behind, Jack Chick Tracts, 70′s scary movies, etc.” that I had been taught!! It’s all so NOT clear I want to give up sometimes………sigh!! :(

  • http://www.ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com Young Mom

    ???
    I was tracking with the living simpler lives to be able to consume less and give more, that makes sense. How one lives does have impact on the people around them and around the world. But how you make love with your husband? Having an impact around the world? I have no clue how there is a connection there. I’m not trying to be annoying here, but truly baffled. Is the world impacted by whether I take deep breaths or shallow ones? Is the world impacted by whether I brush my hair or not? How about if I kiss my husband on the lips or the cheek?
    ???

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Ack! If you use any more question marks, your keyboard might explode! :) I sorta answered this with Kat’s comment, but I guess I think it’s interesting that many of the same excuses used to justify careless consumerism are also used to justify sexual preferences. Maybe there’s no connection, but I just think it’s an intriguing question to ask.

      • http://www.ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com Young Mom

        Lol! I’ll try to keep out question marks now. ;) I still don’t really see the connection, but ask away.
        And yes, “sexual preferences” is very tied to the whole “Gay lifestyle” type statements, as if being sexually attracted to the same sex is kind of like picking what curtains you want to put in your dineing room or whatever.

  • http://nomoredegrees.blogspot.com Happy Geek

    I totally agree with you that the way we spend our money affects others. I have made big changes in my shopping over the past years to try and positively affect others.
    Materialism and consumerism does have a global impact.
    But I must confess I can’t track with you on the pornography and marriage issue. I am wondering if it is because I come from a Protestant perspective one that is a bit more individualistic and you are coming from a more communal Catholic perspective.
    I am looking to reading the comments on this one.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Oooh, good insight! I wonder if part of this has to do with my moving away from a fiercely individualistic perspective and more toward a communal Catholic one. You’re probably right on that. :)

      • http://nomoredegrees.blogspot.com Happy Geek

        In a vastly oversimplified way, my first response to your other post was, ” I am so glad I am Protestant where we believe that people are bad and sex is good.” :)

      • http://looking-closely.blogspot.com Rachel Rev

        I don’t know. I am a protestant minister, and I get the whole communal aspect of how our attitudes and actions impact the world around us, for good or for evil.

        • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

          YES!

  • Kathatime

    Watch out Elizabeth… Your conclusions may be too Catholic for many of your readers to grasp.

    Yes, that sin, even private sin, effects the whole world, is extremely Catholic. Remember that private piety effects the whole world as well, it may be that we can do a whole lot more good with our prayers than our money.

  • http://smoochagator.wordpress.com/ Smoochagator

    When I began to learn and understand the Catholic church’s teaching on sex, it was sobering – almost terrifying. Not because I’m afraid of having a million kids, but because I realized how very much I fall short of truly loving my husband, even (perhaps especially) during our lovemaking. How often do I hold back parts of my heart and mind, not trusting him, not fully giving myself to him? How often do I demand from him, thinking our sex life is all about my physical pleasure? How often do I close God out of my marriage, because REALLY loving my husband is too inconvenient and doesn’t make me feel good? See – terrifying.

    Keep it coming, girl – this is good stuff. I like what’s going on inside you.

  • Ann

    What Elizabeth wrote concerning sexuality really made me think. The crux of what she is getting at concerns our motives and whether or not we truly value others, or just “use” them on some level to make us feel better, distract us, or entertain us. It is about respect, seeing the sacred in love in all of our relationships, and our deepest motives toward God and others.

    • http://looking-closely.blogspot.com Rachel Rev

      I agree, Ann. Very well said.

  • http://www.rareroses.com/ Azure

    I don’t really see the connection either. How we spend our money has always been important, as in the saying, “Vote with your wallet!” “Money talks!” “Money makes the world go ’round.” The world economy is based on where and how we spend our money. (With this recession, all I hear on the radio is “Consumer spending is down!”) Everyone is tracking our spending. (“Green is in! Market your products as green!”) You would really have to be sheltered to believe that our spending has no impact.

    • Carrie

      The problem of poverty in third world countries has a lot to do with government and economics as well as available resources. It is more complicated than it seems on the surface. Free market economies actually make “the pie” bigger. It is not a matter of if someone earns a bigger slice another person will have to settle for a smaller slice. The free market grows the pie so that there is more for everybody. A very good book to read about economics is called “Money, Greed, and God”, by Jay Richards. He is a catholic, I believe. The pie example is of course only relevent in Countries that operate under capitalism and free market economics. When we purchase something, we provide people with jobs. If everyone all of sudden stopped buying, our economy would tank, and we’d all be poor. I know capitalism is what produces wealth, the kind we experience in America. I always try to balance it in my mind with, “To whom much is given, much will be required.”

  • http://sue-livingandlearning.blogspot.com/ Sue

    If I’m understanding what you’re saying correctly, it’s not that one individual sexual act in the bedroom directly affects other people, but that the mindset of “if it feels good, it’s OK,” or, “my immediate needs/desires must be met,” etc., seep into all areas of life and affect how we interact with people and things – how we live our lives. The mentality of, “I can do whatever I want in my own bedroom with my own spouse, and that doesn’t affect anyone else” is a fallacy because the attitude spills out into other area of our lives. Why should I wait? Why should I do without something that makes me feel good?

    What affects my body, my attitude, ultimately affects the Body.

    I’m with you EE. Then again, I too am a Catholic convert, and didn’t see things in this light when I was a Protestant either. Oh, the growing pains!

    • http://bluebonnetreads.wordpress.com Hannah C.

      This is how I understood your post too, EE. And I agree completely with you – it’s a very intriguing question/hypothesis.

      I think the general mindset of “I can do what I want as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody” is often times very fallacious – because it DOES affect people, even if we don’t see it right then. There are very few, if any, actions we make in this world that *don’t affect anyone but ourselves*. It’s just that the effects on others are hidden.

      • http://www.seekingfaithfulnessblog.blogspot.com Holly

        Yes, that’s how I see it too. We are “whole” people (theoretically, anyway…) and we do not or should not operate compartmentally.

        In one of your previous posts one lady said that frankly, she didn’t want God in her bedroom. She wanted him to stay outside in the hall, or something like that. I am not wanting to personally, individually criticize – not at all. But I found that so sad, nonetheless. Sexuality IS holy, it IS a holy gift between couples. Our lives our supposed to be holy – that doesn’t mean legalistic or not enjoying God’s gifts – anything but that, really. But we are to live as whole people, inviting God into every part of our lives. Our entire lives are interconnected. Whatever we do, eating, drinking, giving, working, loving, all is done to the glory of God.

        Maybe that’s too heavy – I don’t know. That’s just how I see it. I have noticed that I have some Catholic ideas, too, even though I’m not one.

        • http://www.indiatoappleton.blogspot.com Nancy

          Yes to this entire thread! Character is what you do when no one is watching . . . and it trickles down into every aspect of our world. We are not to leave God out of the bedroom or diminish our spouse within married sex, because it inevitably affects all other parts of our lives — and others’.

  • http://thedevoutlife.blogspot.com Mindy Goorchenko

    Yes, this is probably a difference between Catholic and Protestant theology pertaining to sexuality, and most recently delineated by Bl. John Paul II in “Man & Woman He Created Them: A Theology of the Body.” I am reading this currently and just blogged about it yesterday here:

    http://thedevoutlife.blogspot.com/2011/08/toward-full-communion-of-persons.html

    This post does not make exactly the point you are making; it simply documents the process I personally underwent in my conversion and how I realized that I was still trying to “appropriate” my husband for myself, as John Paul II puts it, and largely due to the teachings in the Protestant traditions about male and female being and sexuality.

    Rather, JPII, through his incredibly sensitive and deep exploration of Scripture, teaches that we were created to make a selfless gift of ourselves, as Jesus did, and explains the implications of this in re: to spousal love.

    And, not that JPII has made this point yet in his book (I am only in chapter 2), I can surmise that, because we are the Body of Christ, what we do affects the rest of the body, often in ways we can’t see. If we are treating our spouse as an object for our personal pleasure, that sense of “appropriation” reduces that person. It is a mindset that is reflected and reflects our fallen nature.

    In re: to porn, I do see a connection because many Christians continue to have few problems consuming objects and also don’t mind masturbation and other forms of sexual pleasure which reduce human beings (ourselves physically, and others mentally) to mere objects for our own sake.

  • KatR

    Ok, I’ll open my big mouth, and take my lumps here as an Episcopal ho-bag. Catholic sex sounds really dreary. I mean, are you allowed to crack a smile during the process? Does it always have to be WE……ARE ABOUT…..TO HAVE…..SEX.

    • Tara S

      Sweetheart, you don’t even know. In the spectrum of sex – when it’s done with a Catholic sense of what it is worth, it’s much better. Nicer, fuller, better, with more to smile about. And, as a very excellent side effect, that chaste mindset and the habit of restraint and self-giving makes life continue to be as pleasant as possible when it’s necessary to abstain (like if your husband goes away on a work assignment, or if one of you gets too sick)…because as lovely as sex is, it was more about giving and less about having…and we can keep on giving even without sex!

      I’m not saying that I’m a perfect model of this. It’s an ideal I strive for, because I’ve seen the benefits in my own life when it’s achieved. But I think the main hinge-point of this approach to sex is that it’s NOT a question of sex. It’s a question of rightmindedness in everything we do, of making ourselves the most able to be continually giving and loving in all circumstances. How that applies to sex, in particular, is just a part of the general application of the Catholic understanding of Christ-centeredness. If sex IS the main question when looking at sexual activity, it would be very, very difficult indeed to reach the conclusion Elizabeth is reaching, and the conclusion that the Catholic church reached as well.

      I think, maybe, it’s best expressed a difference between the *pursuit* of pleasure and the *enjoyment* of pleasure when it presents itself in the course of our proper pursuits. Catholics used to be mocked by the other Christians for enjoying life *too much*! But we haven’t really changed – just the world’s opinions have. :-)

      • KatR

        I guess the “sex can’t ever be fun” mindset is one I just don’t understand.

        • Tara S

          But it is fun! Who said it can’t be fun? (Besides the 19th century Victorians, that is.) If I gave you the impression that sex in the mindset I was talking about is not extremely fun and robust and good…then I have some serious communication problems, and I apologize. :-)

          • KatR

            :) I guess that’s the impression that I’m getting, that you can’t have sex without first reading and discussing a chapter out of “Theology of the Body” and then putting on a CD of Gregorian chants.

          • Tara S

            HAHAHA… KatR, you’re awesome. :-)

        • http://www.seekingfaithfulnessblog.blogspot.com Holly

          Good Lord A’mighty….who said it isn’t fun? Everyone here has been saying it’s incredibly fun!

          (Throwing a “love punch” your direction, KatR.)

          • KatR

            Responding with an “affectionate kick to the shins”.

      • Alexandrakuhl

        Beautifully explored, Tara!

        • Holly

          :)

  • http://www.mamabean.ca Mama Bean

    okay, i didn’t really get the post (at first). i enjoyed reading all the comments. i get that there are parallels in the ways we justify our spending/consumerism and our sexual… irresponsibility? selfishness? consumerism? like, that’s what porn does, right, turns sex into commodity. so, pornography turns sex into just another something we consume, we apply the same attitudes to sex as we do to where we spend our dollars. so, it’s not *exactly* that what i do in my bedroom effects others… but that my attitudes about sex, if they venture into commodification, will be like the attitudes of consumerism which effect (harm) our world, also. gah?

  • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

    Well, yes. Everything we do impacts the world around us in ways we see and in ways we do not see. Moreover, the human race is so interwoven that nothing we do can fail to impact others. As I’ve written elsewhere, when someone … breaks, it’s not, “There but for the grace of God go I” but simply, “There go I.” Any other perception is a lie. This is the heart of Christianity and it’s why the Incarnation “works”.

    Nor do I miss that our entire culture has been and is increasingly sexualized. Heck, I was shaped wholly within that context. It’s the air I’ve breathed my whole life … from early childhood on. And when one person in a marriage imposes their will on the other (sexually or otherwise) it’s the worst sort of evil.

    With that said, I still don’t see how the shape sex takes between two people, if truly and fully consensual and mutually desired, has any taint of anything I might call ‘evil’. I fully and unreservedly by the interconnected and communal nature of humanity. But I don’t see that connection.

    And, going back to the original post, I still don’t get how people doing acrobatic aerobic exercise fully clothed using poles has any real connection to either strippers or porn. That’s a head scratching one for me.

    • Holly

      Hey Scott. :)

      I know you mentioned this in one of the previous posts – and I’m left, again, wanting to mention specific things that couples could do with/to each other that truly are disrespectful. I can’t do that – I am just to shy and want to be careful what I write online. Hmmm…how can I say this generically…..things like bondage and striking (and the submissive one believing that she deserves it and that she or he is being cleansed by the hitting) and pain infliction and putting bodily wastes on the other….things like that. Would those be respectful and okay? I can’t see how that serves and loves the “other” in a relationship, even if the “other” thinks they are okay with whatever is being done.

      There are things I wish I did not know, truly. I have spent so many years wishing that I had not been exposed to pornography (and abused to it, too, as a child…) not only because of the damage done to my spirit, emotions, pysche and physical self before I was even formed as a person, really, but because of the concepts and images and thoughts left in my brain. What a horrible fight to redeem my mind and to even realize *how* affected I was by those images and by the words and practices on those pages. (And that was 3o plus years ago…pornography is much worse now.) I WISH I did not know this, but I do. There really *are* some deviant practices out there that two people immersed in the pornographic mindset could mutually agree to do. They are just not respectful, no matter which way you look at them.
      Also, it is very rare that two people come into a marriage “whole” any more. What a person might agree to if she is used to being abused is something that in wholeness she might refuse.

      Also, as an aside and to the general conversation in general – the pornographic mindset is so pervasive, you can’t avoid it in our society. I go to the eyedoctor, and there in a basket is a cultural/living type of magazine local to our area. I pick it up, page through it, thinking I’ll get some decorating ideas. Instead, it is filled with sex toys for the hip, young readers, I suppose. Many of these were designed to look like children’s toys – rubber duckies, etc. That just made me sick. My 18 year old son was with me – nothing to keep him from picking up the same magazine and reading about things that will also influence his thoughts and ideas before he is even married. This is not the first time this has happened – I usually take the mag. to the check in desk and ask if they want children reading it. It’s everywhere. I don’t have a clue of what to do about it, really, other than choose to live differently and to do my best to teach my children to do the same (over time.) It’s not that easy, though.

    • http://thewinedarksea.com/weblog.php Melanie B

      “With that said, I still don’t see how the shape sex takes between two people, if truly and fully consensual and mutually desired, has any taint of anything I might call ‘evil’.”

      I think I agree but my agreement hinges on what you mean by “truly and fully consensual and mutually desired.” Are you assuming by that formulation that the desire itself is not disordered? To me the problem with the ‘anything goes as long as it’s desired by both parties’ argument is that it can kind of gloss over the question of the fact that we can have disordered desires. To shift to a food analogy, you can truly and fully consent to the desire to eat a tenth slice of pie but that doesn’t make it any less gluttonous. Or you can desire the right food at the wrong time (excessive snacking between meals) or in the wrong amount or eat the right food at the right time but in a way that is gluttonous (such as shoveling your quinoa salad into your mouth at dinner with both hands in such a way that it gets all over your face, your hands, your clothing, and the tablecloth). Or the classic bulimic way to eat: eat good healthy food at meals and then purge them afterward. Does it hurt anyone? It may not hurt anyone else and it may not even hurt you; but it’s still a disordered way to eat and evidence of an unhealthy relationship with food.

      As for how the “acrobatic aerobic exercise fully clothed using poles has any real connection to either strippers or porn,” I think the connection is in the imagination. Perhaps in the purest abstract that kind of movement isn’t necessarily connected with either strippers or porn. But actions exist within a cultural context and have meanings because of association of ideas. None of us can escape those associations of ideas. So unless the women who are taking those classes have truly been sheltered, there is a connection. And even for young girls taking the classes who may themselves be innocent of the implications, it’s no different than having innocent young children say naughty words they don’t understand or imitating sex acts they don’t understand. It’s still transgressive in the minds of the adults who are coaching them. Because that kind of movement around a pole is associated in the popular culture with strippers, there is no way for anyone in our culture to do it without to some degree engaging in a behavior that feels transgressive and naughty.

      • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

        Yes, to me the lack of significantly disordered desire was implicit in my “truly consensual”. If someone is significantly disordered, to a large degree they lack the capacity to truly consent. If you then use their disorder to satisfy your own desire, even if they believe it’s something they desire as well, that can’t truly be described as consensual — at least in my mind. It’s one person using another or even two disordered people using each other and treating each other as objects.

        • Holly

          But, Scott….

          if we are talking about porn we are immediately talking about the inclusion of deviant acts and the misuse of the other person.

          It is not correct to say that “anything” is permissable and good within a marriage.”

  • http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/ Mara

    I see it more as…
    We need to take care of the pitfalls of wealth.
    Money is not bad. Sex is not bad.
    Love of money is the root of all evil.
    Having an improper attitude about sex and what it’s for most likely is not a good thing either.
    Wealth brings much leisure time, which again, isn’t a bad thing. It is how it is used.
    With all the wealth and leisure time we have, are we spending it all on ourselves, or are we using it to help others a bit as well?
    With all this leisure time and wealth, are we turning to God or are we looking for more, new and exciting things to buy and new and exciting sexual positions to fill the time? Are money and sex in their proper places or have they become drugs to keep us from dealing with reality?
    And in all the new and exciting things we are buying and experimenting with… Does this cloud our vision of the “big picture” like a big fancy carnival with all it’s flashing light, bells, whistles and other loud noises, distracts us from the things that are really important?

    Because honestly, certain sectors of Christianity have gone so far off the deep end with how important it is for a human being to have a wild, free, and over-the-top stimulating sex life, that they have forgotten the things that Jesus told us to remember and consider important. Sex wasn’t on His list, folks. Yet to hear some preachers talk, wild and unashamed sex between married partners is more important that doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    I’m protestant btw. Nothing Catholic about me.
    What I’m talking about has nothing to do with Catholic vs Protestant.
    What I’m talking about is a wealthy nation squandering its wealth on selfish emptiness, vanities and lies. And I’m talking about a Church that is increasingly, year by year, wanting to pursue the things that entertain and tantalize the world.

    Again, sex is not bad. money is not bad. But the love of money is the root of all evil. So what will setting sex as too high of a priority in Christian marriage do? When is it too high of a priority? Why are people getting bent out of shape when the questions are asked? Why is it touching such a nerve?

    • http://www.seekingfaithfulnessblog.blogspot.com Holly

      Mara, yes! That’s exactly right! You’ve struck the chord! I tried to write a response, but anything I said was but a shadow to your comment. Beautifully written!

  • http://fromthepulpitofmylife.blogspot.com/ Ruth Ann

    Elizabeth, you might like to read Following Christ in a Consumer Society by John F. Kavanaugh. I suggest the 25th Anniversary Edition. I feel certain you will find it insightful as you work through these issues.

  • http://quicksilverqueen.com Anne – QuicksilverQueen.com

    I just read thru the comments and sort of get the impression that:

    1. Catholic commenters think this is a great question.
    2. Non-Catholic commenters are wondering what in the world you’re talking about.
    3. Catholics are under the impression they have better sex than other people.

    I have no clue what Catholics believe about sex (other than #3 above), but I have to agree with KatR who said Catholic sex sounds dreary. If you’re not allowed to “freely cavort” in the bedroom, us non-Catholics at least get the impression that it’s more of a chore, or at least something you have to think about before doing. (There goes spontaneous because-we-feel-like-it sex!) Sex is SUPPOSED to be fun, otherwise God wouldn’t have created the orgasm.

    I think there is perhaps a connection between consumerism and pornography, but not between consumerism and one’s private sex life with their spouse.

    • http://thehomespunlife.com Sisterlisa

      Woohoo God created the orgasm. Thank you, Anne.

      • http://www.indiatoappleton.blogspot.com Nancy

        Wish I had it at my fingertips, but there’s a great Chesterton quotation about how he used to think that Christianity had too many rules, but then he learned that it simply provided boundaries “that good things might run wild.” I’m not Catholic, but I totally understand the mindset EE and other Catholic commenters have (and most of the same things are taught at my evangelical church). We are not to consume others — and any connection to porn in our sex life automatically makes it about consumption of another person. A good litmus test is: would the ideas you have for the bedroom occur to you without having seen them elsewhere? There are some people with disordered thinking who may come up with stuff like bondage on their own, but for most of us, it comes from porn (including that in mainstream movies).

        So I say, let “good things run wild”, in the best, most-passionate way . . . but don’t be a consumer of your spouse.

    • Robyn

      I’m one of the non-Catholics who doesn’t understand. Can someone explain to me?? Or Elizabeth can you explain?? What were you free to do before that as a Catholic you can’t do now? I don’t fully understand. Are there certain things that the Catholic church says you cannot do? I don’t know much about Catholicism…..and I admit I don’t know all that all Protestant believers teach. Thanks!

  • hippimama

    I’m not Catholic — but I think I get what you’re driving at. Both in the bedroom and in our consumerist habits (and, I would add, in the way we approach food and eating) we want to live without any limits at all. People on the political left do this and people on the right do it. We just draw the line in different places. Living without limits is bad for us personally and for the world as a whole, but there is something about putting limits on our personal freedom which grates against our modern mindset.

  • Nella

    First, as a Catholic wife, I want to say that in general, the Catholic Church does not have some checklist of “APPROVED SEX ACTS”. Spouses in a Catholic marriage can “freely cavort”, the difference is that the focus must be on each other. Totally. Wives can be sexy for their husbands, like commenters alluded to in Song of Solomon. We cross a line when the focus is on getting, rather than giving. As far as sex and consumerism, when we as Christians PAY someone to teach us to strip or pole dance, when we PAY for marital aids, even when they come from Christian sites, we are voting with our dollars for an industry that exploits human beings and we are saying it’s ok. You can’t be so naive as to think that because it comes from a Christian source it doesn’t legitimize it’s origin(the sex industry) in some way. Before anyone thinks I’m so crazy Catholic traditionalist who wears a matilla to bed every night, my husband and I have been sexually active since we met when I was 16. We have come, kicking and screaming, to practice the Catholic vision for sex to the best of our ability. My husband still struggles with having to abstain at times, etc. But if you were to ask him is our sex life was dreary…he’d laugh in your face.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Thanks for this great clarification, Nella!

    • http://moss-place.stblogs.org Peony Moss

      LOL at the idea of wearing a mantilla to bed

  • ARM

    I see why people are asking exactly how these two things are connected and I can’t give a good philosophical answer (though I’m on the same page as EE about this), but how about a historical datapoint? It has definitely been the case in the history of human societies that cultures that practice extreme luxury and conspicuous consumption also tend to be notable for extreme sexual license; I’m thinking of the late Roman empire, for instance. And conversely, Christian monasticism has always taught that asceticism about food, drink, etc., helps preserve chastity.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Interesting! I didn’t think about the connection between consumerism and food, but that totally makes sense.

      • http://moss-place.stblogs.org Peony Moss

        The food thing is getting really weird in our culture as well — cookbooks and cooking shows everywhere, while we eat more takeout than ever; luxury kitchens; food as a class marker….

  • Laura

    Hi Elizabeth,

    I have been a long time reader – I think your writing is truly beautiful – but this is my first comment!

    What you have written here just reminded me of a talk given by Eve Ensler about the connections between our bodies and the way we treat the Earth, which I thought you might find interesting:
    http://www.ted.com/talks/eve_ensler.html
    It’s not a particularly Christian viewpoint, but interesting and quite moving all the same.

    Keep writing, this is provoking some amazing discussions!

    Laura xx

  • Tara S

    I wonder, given some of the choice of words we have collectively used, if there isn’t a widespread sense that self-denial itself (not just in marital relations, but in general) is dreary and bland? Which is exactly what the consumeristic mindset is trying to convince us of in the first place, and pretty much exactly the connection you were suggesting…

    It’s like the world shows us a picture of what self-denial and self-restraint would be like *without* God (dreary indeed!) and it’s hard for us to see how adding God to that equation would change the outcome into something colourful and beautiful and joyful, as well as useful. And it remains so difficult for us to see, that many of us who *do* invite God into our lives still it as deprived, rather than transformative.

    • Tara S

      “still [see] it as” Whoops.

  • http://looking-closely.blogspot.com Rachel Rev

    Hi there. I just discovered your blog with your post “The Pornification of Marriage”, which I loved. Very thoughtful piece. And I get what you are saying here. I, too, share your thoughts that everything we do (buy, love, etc) has implications beyond just us. Have you heard the Dar Williams song, “Echoes”? If not, check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHzFHtVSf54 . She has a line “When you just make love inside your bedroom, it echoes all over the world.” I love it, especially that it follows the line “When a leader gets the hungry fed food…” The “little” things matter as do the “big” things. You know, my partner and I had this song sung during communion when we got hitched a few years back.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Hi, Rachel! Welcome! I haven’t heard that song, but I will definitely check it out! Thank you for stopping by.

  • Maggie Dee

    As a new Catholic convert these are the questions I started asking myself too. It is very uncomfortable to realize that a lot more of my choices affect others than I realized. Kind of like that whole butterfly effect I guess. I wish I had a clear-cut answer, but I don’t. I’m going to quote what my husband wrote to me in a note on a particulaly stressful day. “I don’t expect you to do or be more than you can. We do what we can for each new day”. So, that’s what I’m striving for. Each new day as I’m presented with a myriad of choices I’m just trying to make the best choice possible. I must say I learned how selfish I was when I got married. Then I learned how really selfish I was when I had kids. Now, that I’m catholic, I’m discovering whole new levels of selfishness. :-)

    As to the whole Catholic sex thing. There’s nothing dreary happening when each person is focusing on pleasing and giving themselves to the other. Trust me, both people “ahem” win.

  • Holly

    Okay. The connection. Sorry for posting so much. (I’m working through this as I go about my day.)

    IF we are consumed with self-gratification (consumerism, as fueled by the pornographic mindset/culture/business machine) we are not able to focus on the other things that God wants us to also focus on. We do not care about the poor and how we can change things for the better, we care about a better experience, about better things for ourselves. Our dollars go to pleasing us, to entertaining ourselves, not to improving another person’s life.

  • Margaret

    Funny thing is, secular society seems to comprehend the connection between money and sex *very* easily.

    I don’t think Elizabeth is making that huge a leap. (And I’m not even Catholic, so there goes that argument)

  • ARM

    I don’t want to be gratuitously sectarian, but all the Protestants here seem to be making this a Catholic thing. . . and maybe they’re right, because when I read some evangelical and other Christian sites about the “godly marriage bed” (ahem – technical difficulties on honeymoon), although I’ll admit I’m grateful for some of the practical advice help they offered, I also felt a bit like I’d landed on an alien planet. (“Is anal sex okay? Well, there’s no verse in the Bible about that, so as long as you and your partner both feel comfortable. . .”)

    The thing I don’t get about the “anything goes as long as you’re married” approach that seems common in Protestantism is that it makes sexual ethics seem completely arbitrary. I mean, in our Catholic view, the principles that govern marital sex are the same principles that make sex outside marriage wrong. And we understand those principles to be truths about human nature – truths about the way we’re made and the way we work.

    Outside that wholistic framework, I don’t get how you can coherently defend the marriage requirement itself, or prohibit gay marriage. And so on. Except by saying “It’s wrong because God said only in marriage, and God said marriage is only between a man and a woman,” as if God just arbitrarily decides to declare things permitted or forbidden. I’m sure I must be missing something and caricaturing this view, but it just seems like such a strange way of thinking about God and morality to me.

  • http://quicksilverqueen.com Anne – QuicksilverQueen.com

    If what I did in the bedroom last night affects anyone else…well, I just won’t say if I did or didn’t have sex with my husband…you figure out if it affects you or not. :D

    • Robyn

      Were there other people with you?? Did it involve children??? (real or from magazines) Did you do anything that could spread any diseases in any way??? (If I’m way off in my thinking in any way, please forgive me. But, if any act in life is Sinful it is so for a reason……..if God didn’t say it’s Sinful, then I guess we are in the clear. Not implying any of the above with you. I’m just thinking there are things that are and are not acceptable–but I’m far from being any kind of expert on the matter. :) )

  • Jared

    For sake of discussion, Dante connected usury and unnatural sex acts.

    http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle7.html#violence

    I have been following along the past few days from a link over at the NCR. Interesting discussion and I think much needed. I tend to think that couples can be as creative as they desire (assuming human dignity is granted like no force or coercion) within the boundary walls of the playground if I may use Chesterton’s imagery.

  • http://blog.amberlbaker.com Amber-Lee

    Hey EE,
    I completely get what you’re saying, but I disagree with it…sort of.
    I think where the problem lies is don’t agree that wearing a corset for my husband is a sin. So it’s not that I’m saying that my private sin is only my business, but that it isn’t a sin at all.

    • Nella

      Who in any of this said wearing a corset is a sin?

      • http://blog.amberlbaker.com Amber-Lee

        That’s what I’m taking away from EE’s view on the pornification of marriage (based on her previous post). That there are certain acts in the bedroom between a husband and a wife that Christians can’t do. Perhaps I’m wrong. Elizabeth, care to clarify?

  • http://www.downtoearthwomen.blogspot.com Tracey

    Um, perhaps I am hopelessly naive, but doesn’t anyone keep to themselves what they do in their bedrooms anymore?

    Sorry, but I’m not putting my sex life on the world wide web so that others can pick it apart and leave me wondering if my marriage is “pornified.” C’mon, really?

    I get the impression that many of you just simply aren’t content unless you’re feeling guilty or shamed about something. And, some of you, are working really hard to get there.

    No wonder we have such a twisted view of intimacy. We talk about it to death. How about keeping some of this stuff under wraps so it can be, well, INTIMATE? As in “between you and your spouse?”

    Boundaries, people.

    Sheesh.

    • http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/ Mara

      That’s the way it used to be, Tracey.
      But the latest fad among some sectors of Christianity has been to talk and talk about sex, even in Sunday am, family services.
      And certain teachers have considered it their job to push the boundaries of what is acceptable and then slap a, “Thus saith the Lord,” on it, then name call and shame those who question this new, free-for-all exposure-fest of how wild and crazy every Christian couple should have it as often as one of them wants it.

      People on this thread keep talking about what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom and whether or not it has any influence on the rest of the world, derailing this conversation when what it was really about was outside, ‘Christian’ influences pushing the pornification of marriage.
      The fact of the matter is, the Christian bedroom has been exposed and put on display and Christians, especially Christian women, are shamed into certain behaviors they may find demeaning and distasteful. Pun intended.
      My first exposure to such teachings shocked me beyond measure, especially when Scripture was being twisted to support this teaching and the teacher was being hailed as enlightened and relevant.

      • http://blog.amberlbaker.com Amber-Lee

        I am still very confused.
        Do you think that most virgin 20 somethings want missionary position sex only – because I can tell you from a seminary perspective it just ain’t so. At a seminary women’s get together last year we had a long conversation on the benefit of using coconut oil as a lubricant opposed to an artificial one. This isn’t something our husbands push on us, or we feel pressure about. It’s something that we are reveling in, and we’re asking our husbands to embrace.

        • http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/ Mara

          Either you are not familiar with the teachings and pressure on women that I’m talking about (Which I’m pretty sure of by you quesstion), or you ARE aware and familiar and are making a mockery of me (Which I’m going to assume you aren’t doing from here on.)

          There are teachers that are using the Song of Solomon to say things that it absolutely doesn’t say to pressure women into acts and frequency of sex they may or may not be comfortable with. This is the pornification of marriage.

          People keep using the word consensual, which is a good word. But the teachings that I’m referring to give lip-service to the word consensual. Make no mistake, it is lip service only.

          The fact of the matter is, if a woman is not willing to give her husband free access to every orifice of her body pretty much anytime he wants it, then she is not being available for him in the way the ‘beloved’ is in Song of Solomon is available to the ‘lover’, and if he stumbles in any way, through porn or homosexual activity, then it’s her fault because she wasn’t consensual enough, and she is to blame.

          Consensual is good. And if that is what is really going on in people’s marriages, and I mean really, then I have little to say about anything except for one thing and it doesn’t have anything to do with pole dancing.
          The problem is that the teachings I’m running into aren’t about consensual. They are all about getting women to act dirty enough to please their husbands, many of whom have already been exposed to a whole lot of porn and don’t have a health view of marital sex.

          • http://blog.amberlbaker.com Amber-Lee

            That makes sense. I have not run into that type of teaching. I’ve heard of such things – like Mark Driscoll saying that it’s a wife’s place to give her husband a blowjob – but I’ve never known it in practice. The closest I’ve experienced is a friend who thought for the first two years of her marriage that when her husband wanted to have sex, she was obligated as a wife to have sex. When when this came up in conversation with us other women in our circle of friends – we were horrified and assured her that a marriage doesn’t require that at all. “You don’t always have to say yes, you just don’t always say no.” This motto goes for both men and women. Many of us in the circles I run it were brought up with mothers that wouldn’t talk about sexuality. We were the I Kissed Dating Good-Bye generation. We were told hand holding and boyfriends were simply unbiblical. So we had to break through shame and legalism to be honest with one another that our sexual desires were normal and healthy. It wasn’t our husbands forcing behaviors on us, they were frustrated with our trepidation and fears. It was the generation above us pushing their True Love Waits theology on us.

          • http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/ Mara

            Okay, Amber-Lee,
            I see that you WEREN’T mocking me. It’s just when I deal with little Driscollites, one of the weapons in their arsenal is, “you are just too much of a prude and sexually boring, repressed, not in tune with what God wants women to do to service men” which you comment about missionary style sounded a bit like.
            These little Driscollites, who worship Driscoll and his pornographic teaching of the Songs are horrible to talk to. Young, arrogant, disrespectful, insulting, belittling, mocking… etc.

            So I apologize for getting on the offensive even though it was only for a little bit.
            I’m glad I assumed you weren’t spouting the Driscoll “you’re such a prude and sexually repressed” party line.

    • http://mamamiamcmasters.blogspot.com/ Linda

      I am not broadcasting details ever. However, I will be open and honest about sexuality with my kids and those who I am in relationship with. There is a lot of info out there, and if they can’t get it from me, where will they get it? If the church does not address issues of sexuality and marriage, people will look elsewhere.

  • http://thehomespunlife.com Sisterlisa

    I can’t imagine that what my husband and I do in bed has anything to do with the poor…or anyone else for that matter. We don’t broadcast what we do, or even how often we do it. I must have missed the point you are trying to make. Clarify?

  • Holly

    Amber-Lee, I think you are confusing the enjoyment of intimacy in marriage with the pornification of marriage. There is a difference. No one is saying married love shouldn’t be enjoyed and shouldn’t be generally creative. It should be.

    It seems that some of the women here are saying by their arguments that porn is okay, that they have no problem with porn.

    So, I guess that would be my question for those who disagree with EE. Is porn okay? Is the influence of porn on a marriage okay? Are you aware of the awful damage porn has done to many children and women? Is so, why would you want to utilize it in your marriage? And along with those, the related question of are we an over-sexualized society? Is this good for us? Are we gluttonous in many ways, including sexually? Does our gluttony in any area, including sex, keep us from doing the good in the world that we are supposed to be doing?

    • KatR

      I don’t think you will find many people who disagree with Elizabeth on this blog who think that porn is good or that porn in a marriage is healthy. My disagreement stems from the fact that I don’t think that a woman dancing for her husband is “porn”.

      • Holly

        Well, I don’t think so specifically, either. I don’t think most people are actually saying that.

  • Holly

    Further:

    It is my opinion that those who argue in favor of porn have no true idea what porn is nor the harm that it does.

    I think, too, that many have been so surrounded by porn as they have been raised – that they don’t even recognize the subtle infiltration into the generally accepted mainstream. Porn is vile and evil. It has no place in a Christian marriage.

    • KatR

      Ok, then, what IS porn?

      • Holly

        Take a stroll on the internet….

        • Holly

          It quickly degenerates to the vile and abusive….it’s a huge, huge market.

          • http://blog.amberlbaker.com Amber-Lee

            That doesn’t actually answer what porn is, but it’s also hard to define porn. Do I think my lingerie photos are porn? No. Do I think my friend who does burlesque is involved in porn? No. Do I think Cosmo could be porn? Yes. Why? I have no clue.

  • Holly

    Annnnnnd…..I’m going to be away from home today so one more comment. :)

    I have been reading thru the Bible this year, hoping to gain a sense of overview.

    Here’s one of the main threads I picked up on.

    From Moses thru Paul, we pick up God’s desire for His people: Be Different from the nations that surround you.

    This is what set God’s people apart. They were called to deep, rich relationships – but also asked (thru moral codes/laws and then thru Paul’s injunctions – both of which are sometimes difficult to understand unless we take a broader lens of “what was God wanting thru these sometimes seemingly strange commands?” ) to look at the culture that surrounded them, then to be guided by God into something different. They were called to be pure, to honor this God as different from other, pagan Gods.

    I think He still wants the same thing from his followers today – to be untainted in our relationships, to not adopt the practices of the “pagans,” or “pornographers,” if you will.

    That still leaves a lot of room for fun and creativity in marriage – but we have to sure that we are always honoring and respecting and loving and serving. It’s not too much to ask – it’s what God asks all throughout scripture.

    • Tara S

      YES! Thank you again Holly. :-) Isn’t it telling, too, that in the days of modern science and health studies, we have been able to discover how incredibly healthy and safe Judaic food and hygiene laws were? If they didn’t follow these laws, they very well could have fallen victim to disease as a whole population in their more vulnerable/oppressed times.

      I can’t help but apply the same idea to the rules of my faith – usually I understand *exactly* where the rule comes from and why it’s beneficial, but in the event that I don’t quite see the connection, I follow it anyway and sure enough I can feel the results. It’s easier to be patient and kind, and to think and see clearly…much MUCH easier than when I use my own flawed and easily clouded sense of what *I* think is good enough.

      • Holly

        Thanks, Tara!

  • http://www.shackbible.com ShackBibleGuy

    My marriage is the centerpiece of my human relationships; it’s the relationship I’ve taken the farthest; it is my final frontier of relational depth. As such, the way I relate to my wife affects how I relate to everyone else. If I relate sexually to my wife in ways that honor her, I am making the decision that other-honoring is central to my way of relating. If I am getting aroused by the idea of treating her like a thing, it tells me something is off in my whole pattern of human relating.

    • http://remnantofremnant.blogspot.com priest’s wife

      YES!

      THIS is what EE is getting at!

  • http://mamamiamcmasters.blogspot.com/ Linda

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Nouwen

    I love so much that Henri wrote and just recently discovered the sexuality section of this wikipedia post… It caught me off guard. Just curious if you already read it.

  • Robyn

    I don’t know about everyones’ bedrooms……..But, there is definitely never a dull moment on this blog!! :)

  • http://evenonesparrow.blogspot.com rachel – even one sparrow

    You are on FIRE, Elizabeth! I’m having a posting-spree, sharing a bunch of these posts on FB. You articulate everything so poignantly. Keep it coming!!

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Thanks, Rachel!