Even God Does Not Break Our Will–and why “breaking a child’s will” is NOT Biblical

Posted on August 18, 2011 by elizabeth

A few months ago, I wrote this piece as a guest post for my good friend, Rachel Held Evans. In light of the current discussion regarding “Biblical” child-training, Rachel has graciously agreed to let me re-post it here. Is “breaking a child’s will” really how Christians ought to discipline their children?

In the fundamentalist church of my childhood, parents spanked their children until the “will was broken.” To achieve this, parents started spanking their babies at 6 months old. The idea was that if you broke the child’s will in infancy, you primed them to obey God for the rest of their lives.

I’m not here to debate whether spanking is always wrong (I’ve seen it used both appropriately and abusively–and it should be noted that the mild, rare swat to the bottom is a far cry from the systematic, repetitive, cruel methodology advocated by Mike & Debi Pearl).

What really troubles me is the underlying belief that breaking a child’s will is right and good. This is a belief found in many, many Christian circles. In my experience, that one belief was used as justification for all kinds of physical and spiritual abuse.

Even after leaving fundamentalism, I never really questioned the validity and necessity of breaking the human will. I simply concluded it was a good belief—just abusively misapplied.

It wasn’t until recently when I was reading about the persecution of Romanian Christians under Communist rule that something changed for me. According to the late Patriarch Theoctist of the Romanian Orthodox Church, “Man has a very powerful will—so powerful that even God Himself does not break it. And by this [God] is actually showing that man is in the likeness of God. Without man’s will he could not make any progress on the way to goodness. So out of all the gifts that God grants the human being, we believe that freedom is one of the most important.” (Mysteries of the Jesus Prayer, p.126).

I found myself almost weeping with recognition at these words and their hard-won insight. It is a perspective born of suffering, an epiphany emerging from the ashes of an oppressive belief system. This man shepherded his beleaguered, persecuted church through the long, dark years of Communism and for those deprived of freedom, the gift of freedom becomes one of the most important.

Although the oppression I experienced was spiritual, not political; the dynamics of control were the same. By actively seeking to break a child’s will, parents unwittingly engaged in an obliteration of their child’s individual personhood and freedom. When humans attempt to break another human will, they desecrate the likeness of God in that person and violate their God-given gift of freedom.

I find it remarkably beautiful that we actually need our intact, unbroken wills to “make progress on the way to goodness.” Indeed, the road to holiness requires strong, powerful wills. It’s such a different thought than the kind of thoughts from my childhood. The difference is a yielded will versus a broken one. When your focus is breaking the will, the only obedience you can ever really expect is obligatory, perhaps even begrudged. But when your focus is winning the heart, obedience becomes a joyful love offering—a heart and will freely given.

In other words, I don’t obey God because He broke my will. I obey Him because His love pursued me and won my heart.

That is the kind of love I want to demonstrate to my own five children. By God’s grace, I will.

[NOTE ON COMMENTS: if you have pro-Mike & Debi Pearl comments to make, there are plenty of places on Internet to do that. But I will not allow those comments on my blog. Comments ARE open for discussion and safe sharing. It is my goal in writing these pieces to bring awareness to the errant "Christian" parenting methods that have hurt many children in the hope that when Christians know better, they do better. Together, we can build a culture of love where children are treated as fully human.]

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  • http://incongruouscircumspection.blogspot.com Incongruous Circumspection

    I’m sorry. I have to say this. I love pearls. If I ever find one, I’m turning it in for a wad of cash. I apologize in advance to my wife.

    Again…I apologize for the pro-pearl comment.

    In all seriousness, thank you for illuminating this subject.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      just make sure it’s the pearl of greatest price. ;-)

    • SonofMonica

      Yeah, and be sure not to cast them before swine.

  • http://www.ordinaryinspirations.blogspot.com Traci

    How do we get our children to have yielded wills? What is the difference between a yielded will and a broken will.

    My will… in a sense, needs to be broken before it can be yielded… otherwise, its MY WILL and not JESUS’s.

    I agree.. that the Pearls methods are abusive. But I also believe that we need to be consistent in love and discipline with our children.

    They should be a beautiful partnership… complimenting one another. All too often (in my life) I go to the extreme of love and grace and slack on the discipline… and I see the negative results. On the other hand, I can go to far on the discipline and not do it in a loving way. This is sin on my part too.

    As Mommies and parents, we need to daily be yielded to the Holy Spirit of God that we may raise our little babes to LOVE the Lord thy God.

    Good post. On another note, what was the Jesus prayer you quoted? I didn’t see any scripture unless I overlooked it?

    Thanks,
    Traci @ Ordinary Inspirations
    http://www.ordinaryinspirations.blogspot.com

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Traci: as long as we are asking questions like “how do we GET our children to _________(fill in the blank)” I think we’re asking the wrong question. It’s not a matter of control; ie. trying to GET our children to DO something. Ultimately, I believe it’s a parents’ job to win their children’s hearts. When you have a loving, reciprocal, trusting relationship you are able to discipline more effectively.

      The Jesus Prayer is an ancient prayer of the early Orthodox church. In fact, many monks, desert fathers and early monastics centered their lives around it. The book I read is called Mysteries of the Jesus Prayer and you can read more about it here: http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Jesus-Prayer-Experiencing-Spirituality/dp/0061874175

      • http://recoveringpessimist.blogspot.com Jennifer

        LIKE! :-)

        • http://recoveringpessimist.blogspot.com Jennifer

          And FWIW, the Jesus Prayer is based on the prayer of the Publican: “God have mercy on me, a sinner.” Luke 18:13

          • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

            Well, that and a pre-existing practice of simply praying the name of Christ.

      • Valerie

        The sad thing is that there is a whole chapter devoted to this in the Pearls’ book. I really liked that chapter. What I find puzzling is the incongruity of this chapter with the rest of the book. They talk about tying heart-strings with one breath then whooping the life out of them with the next. :(

    • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

      I want to echo Elizabeth. We can’t ever “get” our children to have yielded wills. Ultimately the only will we can control (if we can break free of ruling passions in and through the grace of God empowering our efforts) is our own. If we can learn to yield our wills — to God, to our spouse, to others in the communion of the faith, etc. — even a little, we can perhaps be an example from whom our children can learn. If we love, they might learn to love. I have poem on my refrigerator my Mom gave me years ago. I think it’s pretty well-known. It goes like this:

      Children Learn What They Live (edited version, 1969)
      By Dorothy Law Nolte

      If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
      If a child lives with hostility, he learns to fight.
      If a child lives with ridicule, he learns to be shy.
      If a child lives with shame, he learns to feel guilty.

      If a child lives with tolerance, he learns to be patient.
      If a child lives with encouragement, he learns confidence.
      If a child lives with praise, he learns to appreciate.
      If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice.
      If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith.
      If a child lives with approval, he learns to like himself.
      If a child lives with acceptance and friendship, he learns to find love in the world.

      With what is your child living?

    • HippieGramma

      “How do we get our children to have yielded wills?”

      My husband tried to give me the answer to this years ago, since he’d already raised two, but I didn’t believe it for a long time. I do now. The answer?

      You can’t “get” your children to do anything. You can’t control them. You can’t control what happens to them. Because they were given the same gift of FREE will that you and I were, and eventually they will use every bit of it.

      Hopefully we’ll have influence with our children, and there are a variety of parenting techniques to encourage that. But, ultimately, the choices are entirely up to him. Eventually they will be adults who make their own choices on everything, often in direct opposition to our own wishes. Some start that much earlier than others.

      You can influence. You can model. You can pray. But you cannot “get” or “control.”

      Hard lesson.

      • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

        Agreed. And I certainly learned that truth. Every time I tried to “control” the outcome with my older kids, I usually ended up making things worse — even with the best of intentions (and without any physical violence). Cross my fingers, but I think I learned my lesson with my younger kids. At least, things have seemed a lot better to me. And guess what? They’re doing great. (Heck even the older ones are doing pretty well, though my relationship with them is still not what I would like it to be.)

  • http://campfire-song.com Lindsey @ Campfire Song

    I’ve never heard of the Pearls and I don’t dare read indepth about their methods – what you’ve mentioned here sounds scary enough.

    I don’t have a problem with spanking my kids. This post makes me realize that sometimes I do do it for the wrong reasons – just getting them to LISTEN or DO WHAT I WANT aren’t good ones.

    I was raised to obey parental authority unquestioningly. I keep thinking that’s what I want for my kids – wouldn’t it be so much easier (for selfish me) than having a child who challenges everything (s)he’s told? Even the Bible tells us to test everything. I know that a strong will is a good thing, directed properly, and I don’t want to mess with my kids’ gifts.

    Thanks for the reminder that I shouldn’t try things even God doesn’t do.

  • http://thewilcoxes.blogspot.com cara

    This is a quote from Elisabeth Elliot that has helped me think through the issue of will and children:

    “Because all of us are born in sin, all of us are rebellious, some
    more than others. Some children seem to be born sweet and compliant,
    others are called “strong-willed” when what they really are is merely
    willful–governed by will without yielding to reason, obstinate,
    perverse, stubborn, as my brother Phil was in his high chair when he
    refused to drink his milk. Mother’s steadfast insistence on obedience
    was not for her personal victory over a “strong” will, but rather to
    strengthen her small son’s will to enable him to will against the
    thing he wanted to do. How many adults have remained willful,
    selfish, and immature because they were denied this essential lesson in
    childhood.” -The Shaping of a Christian Family

    It helps me to think that I need to be strengthening my children, coming alongside them to enable them to do more or better than they naturally want to do, rather than subduing them or “winning” in the battle of wills.

  • http://bunny-trails.blogpsot.com Dianne – Bunny Trails

    People so often fail to look at the heart issues, which is so key. While a person can demand obedience, that does nothing to draw the heart and build the relationship. God has always been about relationships. We’re called to love God and love others. It’s sad when people go so far beyond, particularly in the name of God.

  • http://www.somuchshoutingsomuchlaughter.com suzannah {so much shouting, so much laughter}

    my mother admitted to me that she “could never break my will,” and i did wonder why the hell she was even trying to!

    i love your perspective about winning a child’s heart and would love to see better dialogue about this among christians. i’m always interested in the practical ways that families discipline in this manner, because the families i know seem to fall either into the break-their-will camp or the free-for-all-family-democracy camp, and we are definitely trying to practice a third way and learning as we go.

    • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

      Kids need structure and consistency to thrive. And they need to learn what is and is not culturally acceptable. The “free-for-all” approach doesn’t really work. Children start life immature — much more immature than any other mammal. They need less externally imposed structure and order as they grow older. If that doesn’t happen, they will not learn to structure and order their lives for themselves in some way.

      The fallacy is the belief that we can ever truly “control” our children. We may be able to enforce compliance for a relatively brief period of time. And sometimes we may have to do so. “Free-for-all” and family as a democracy are not really the same thing. We’ve always allowed our children meaningful input into family decisions and until they internalized the idea held regular family meetings with no topics off limits. But you can’t really run a family like a democracy. That’s particularly silly when the kids outnumber the adults. The adults are the ones with much of the cultural, societal, and legal responsibility. They are also the ones who (in our country today, at least) generally make the money that supports the family. But you can and should provide your children meaningful input into the way your family functions even if you retain veto and ultimate decision making authority. After all, they are a part of the family.

      They are both old books now, but I still really like “Positive Discipline” by Jane Nelsen and “How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk” by Faber and Mazlish. But don’t take anything in a book as gospel. Even when I like it, I tend to treat parenting books like I do cookbooks. The first time I cook a recipe, I’ll generally try to make it exactly as the recipe outlines so I understand what the author of the recipe intended. That’s usually the last time I’ll follow the recipe exactly. Same things with families. The dynamics of each is as unique as those who make it up. Try something the way a book recommends and then adapt the parts that don’t fit your family.

      I will note that it takes more effort both to learn how to parent and to parent effectively today in America. We’ve virtually eliminated the extended family which not only often provided healthy balance, but which provided children multiple different examples of adult life from related adults. We lack that organic ground (even though with it some families were systemically toxic) so we have to be more intentional and aware.

      But nothing we do will guarantee outcomes. We’ll make mistakes. Our kids will makes mistakes. And sometimes even when we have the best of intentions and try as hard as we know how, things will go horribly wrong. That’s the downside of human freedom. But there’s nothing I’ve found anywhere that has a better chance than the way of love and sacrifice. Perhaps that explains the way God fully revealed himself to us in Christ. If there had been any other way, Gethsemane alone seems to tell us he would have taken it.

      • Valerie

        My favourite parenting books at the moment are Parenting with Love and Logic, and Loving our kids on Puropose (Danny Silk). No smacking at all, and a focus on allowing a child to learn through natural consequences, learning to self-govern and above all, stressing that you cannot ‘control’ a child.

        That is the whole nature of honour – it cannot be demanded but it is something children and parents should be doing. Fear-based training just does not work in the long-term.

  • Amanda

    EE I think you’re right on with this post (or re-post, I suppose). The Bible does not instruct us to “break our child’s will” and I think even the terminology is very dangerous. How do you decide what a “broken will” even is or looks like? I think spanking is biblical and I think when used appropriately is a very helpful tool that can teach our children how to control their will and submit it accordingly. It also illustrates that there will be painful consequences if we choose to follow our own ways rather than God’s. However, another thing the Pearls don’t seem to take into account is that there are NOT specific instructions on how to do it. There is not a “one size fits all” method. (Although there are other principles that are related and should guide individual families – be angry and yet do not sin, do not cause harm to a little one, love others as you love yourself, etc.) That idea coupled with the fact that they are using spanking to achieve an unbiblical goal makes for a methodology that should certainly be rejected by the church.

    • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

      I take a stronger view than Elizabeth espouses — a view which grew even stronger when I slept on it and the various comments seeped into my mind. I don’t often write posts before I leave for work in the wee hours of the morning. But I had to write the one I wrote this morning or I would have been useless at work today. I do believe there are many families in which spanking is not what I would consider abusive and in a context in which it causes little or no lasting harm. But I do not believe it is ever “appropriate” and I take an even stronger view toward calling it “biblical” which in turn implies that God wants you to treat your children with violence. What an absolutely horrible thing to say about God!

      • Amanda

        Violence (noun)
        1. swift and intense (adj. existing or occurring in high or extreme degree) force: the violence of a storm.
        2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment: to die by violence.
        3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws: to take over a government by violence.
        4. a violent act or proceeding.
        5. rough or immoderate vehemence, as of feeling or language: the violence of his hatred.

        I don’t know what you think a spanking is, but I do NOT consider a few mild swats on the behind that leave a momentary sting and are given in the context of calmness to be violent.

        Even if it were to technically fit the definition, I think if God was worried about being considered violent, He would have rethought His OT prescription for disobedient children. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

        Finally, I am curious as to what YOU think the correct interpretation of Proverbs 23:13 is.

        • HippieGramma

          Any New Testament verses to support this?

          • Amanda

            I would first of all refer you to 2 Timothy 3:16.

            Then I would have you look at Proverbs 1:1-5:

            “The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels”

            The Proverbs are still relevant and applicable under the new covenant and were penned by Jesus as much as the rest of Scripture.

            Hebrews 12:5-11 also gives a reference to Proverbs and speaks about discipline and chastening:

            “And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.”

            I would also point out that none of the NT verses which reference children negate the use of the rod.

            If anything, they help parents to examine their own hearts as they discipline: do not provoke your child to anger (Eph 6:4), do not despise one of these little ones (Mt 18:10), do not cause a little one to sin (Mt 18:2-6), be angry and yet do not sin (Eph 4:26), love your neighbor as yourself, etc.

            I would assert that you can not come up with a biblical case for spanking being wrong. However, like everything else, it can be corrupted and horribly abused and I think we need to do everything we can to shine light on that and urge parents to examine their hearts and motives for spanking their children, as well as their methodology.

            Spanking must be done in accord with all of the other commands of scripture and may not negate them or usurp them. If you are pursuing the fruits of the Spirit, for example, (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control) you will find it impossible to discipline your child abusively. Before you say that spanking does not fit in with those fruits, I would remind you that God does not contradict Himself, and since He has sanctioned the use of the rod, then there must be a way to administer it lovingly.

          • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

            And Amanda, I have a simple thought experiment for you. Let’s say you were employed and you were not performing or behaving as your employer desired. Would it be acceptable for your employer to give you a “few mild swats” to encourage behavior more in line with his expectations?

            Or let’s say you weren’t “performing” as a wife to your husband’s expectations. Would it be acceptable for your husband to give you a “few mild swats” to correct your behavior?

            If the answer to either or both of those is no, then explain to me how you simultaneously believe your children are as fully human as you are, yet treat them according to a different standard. I actually would be interested in your rationalization, since I’ve never understood the mindset. I keep hoping someone will say something that at least helps me understand their perspective. (It won’t convince me. I can’t imagine anything that would do that. But it disturbs me that I can’t even understand a particular pervasive perspective.)

          • Amanda

            Scott,

            Quite simply, God has given this authority to parents in the context of their relationship with their children. He has not given the same responsibility to employers over employees, nor to husbands over wives.

            Prov 13:24: “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.”
            Prov 19:18: “Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.”
            Prov 22:15: “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.”
            Prov 23:13: “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.”
            Prov 23:14: “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.”
            Prov 29:15: “The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.”

            You can cry “misinterpretation” all you want, but those verses are quite clear. It is far more likely that you have simply decided that God’s wisdom is wrong, and therefore need to come up with a way to justify rejecting it.

            Also, your accusation of treating children as “less than fully human” sounds more like an appeal to emotion than anything else. Perhaps the Pearls are guilty of the charge (I’m not sure of the validity, but someone quoted them comparing disciplining their children to disciplining a dog), however, it is unfair and silly to make a blanket statement about all parents who spank their children in a sincere effort to submit to God’s instruction. In actuality, by your assertion, you are accusing God of instructing us to treat our children as less than fully human, because we are simply submitting to His wisdom in disciplining them.

            (In regard to your other comment, I suppose my problem with your using terms such as “hurt” and “violent” is that they take on a context in our culture which does not accurately represent what a biblical spanking should look like. (A biblical spanking being one that does not in its motive, intent or application violate any other principles or commands of Scripture.) By using that particular language, you seem to again be making an appeal to emotion rather than seeking to create a valid argument.)

          • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

            Amanda, you wrote: “It is far more likely that you have simply decided that God’s wisdom is wrong, and therefore need to come up with a way to justify rejecting it”– Um. Tone it down a bit, OK? I don’t mind you stating your case, but presuming to know Scott’s motives and/or the state of his heart? Not cool. I’ve noticed that you have a tendency for leaving corrective, critical comments here on my blog. I don’t mind you having a different opinion, but your pattern on my blog is to correct me or other commenters. My suggestion is to try having a bit more grace in your disagreeing comments. :) Thanks. EE.

          • Amanda

            EE – Thank you for the suggestion, I will do my best to use a gentler tone in the future. In this particular instance, Scott has essentially made the claim that I am violent toward my children and am treating them as “less than fully human” if I choose to spank them. In the past he has claimed that the old testament verses in support of spanking are interpreted incorrectly – which by extension means that I have interpreted them incorrectly. These statements are rather offensive to me, and perhaps I got over-defensive in return. In the future, I will refrain from judging other peoples hearts and motives – you’re right, it’s not my place, nor is it a loving thing to do, particularly when I am assuming negative things. Thank you for your reproof and my apologies to you, Scott, for that particular statement. I will work on being more graceful in the future…

          • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

            Ahhh, I knew you had a good heart, Amanda!!! ((hugs)) Carry on!

        • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

          Might I suggest a better dictionary? From one of Oxford’s dictionaries.
          1 behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something:
          violence erupted in protest marches domestic violence against women
          the fear of physical violence
          screen violence
          Law: the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force.
          2 strength of emotion or of a destructive natural force:the violence of her own feelings

          Your “mild swats” are intended to hurt, no? If not, why do it at all?

          The OT law was never the fulfillment even of the law. (Jesus was that.) You need to study ancient cultures and understand the context in which it was set. For example, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is actually a vast improvement over the standard of much of the ancient world. We even see that standard in Lamech of the line of Cain in Genesis. A man wronged him, so he killed him. The law said no. You can’t demand any more in retribution than you suffered. Other parts of the law were about defining a unique people — distinct from the other nations — and then acts showing their God was indeed powerful. (Contrary to much modern Christian understanding, ancient Jews were not monotheists. They were henotheists. It’s not that they believed there was only one God. (That’s obvious when you think about, else why did they keep worshiping other Gods.) Rather, they entered into a covenant to worship only one God.

  • Nella

    God himself GAVE us our free will. So we could freely choose to love and follow Him. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be true love.

  • John

    I’m not a fan of beating or even harshly disciplining children, but you haven’t posted any biblical evidence of why we shouldn’t break a child’s will by, say, spanking, or any other thing.

    Children generally don’t gain the use of reason around the “age of reason” (7), so their will and their reason are in separate spheres. So you can’t reason with a child; you have to discipline them by means other than reason. Similarly, our wills are broken all the time, in a sense; what happens in sacramental confession when God breaks our disordered will with His grace? It’s not a complete breaking, exactly, since we cooperate…

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      John: there is no “Biblical evidence” FOR breaking a child’s will. There is no there THERE. That is all the “evidence” I need.

      Your last sentence sums it up perfectly: “it’s not a complete breaking, exactly, since we cooperate….” That right there is the difference between a yielded will and a broken one. Yes, I surrender to God’s healing grace and in the light of His grace, I can clearly see my shortcoming. His KINDNESS leads me to repentance. :)

    • http://incongruouscircumspection.blogspot.com Incongruous Circumspection

      Huh? You ask for “biblical evidence” and then make a statement about the “age of reason” being 7?

      Does not compute.

      If you hold someone to one standard, I only hope you hold yourself to the same.

    • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

      So a child isn’t a human being until they reach some mythical “age of reason”? I just want to be clear what you’re saying here. Do you “reason” with your dog? (I know we do with ours at a certain level.) If so, are you saying young children are a lower life form than dogs?

      Let’s be clear what statements like the ones you made sound like to people who were not shaped by that particular “Christian” culture. They sound exactly like what I wrote above. I’m certain of that because it’s how I hear them and it’s how many of my friends (who largely aren’t a part of that culture) hear them.

  • http://shoesoflife.blogspot.com Alaina

    Thank you so much for posting about this previously and in the last few days. We need to SPEAK UP for the rights of the vulnerable citizens of society and the world.

    I think the hardest part for me about the videos was in part one where they asked the Pearl’s what they would do if a child (I don’t remember the age) hit another child. Their response? Hit the child 15 times. Something I just don’t understand is how hitting is a good punishment for hitting. It baffles my mind.

    Anyway, thank you for speaking up. It breaks my heart that we have to.

  • Tara S

    It definitely seems to me that “breaking a will” is very un-Christian and (more generally speaking) totally irreligious. It smacks of the insufficiency of God’s power…if He broke our wills right off the bat, then the world would be lovely and fine, but He doesn’t. So either He *doesn’t* or He *can’t.* If we are commanded to break each other’s wills for God, it must be because He is incapable of doing it Himself. I can’t accept that! A supernatural entity that is incapable of breaking our wills to its own is NOT the author of all creation.
    If it’s because He *won’t* break our wills, what then? Well, then we’d better take all the reasons provided in the Bible pretty seriously (love, forbearance, the voluntary yielding of an intact will for the *sake* of love, etc), and apply them to our dealings with each other – more especially using them as a model for raising our own children.

    I’ll admit to having spanked my own children on occasion, but I agree with Scott’s post – I see it as a breakdown in my own ability to find a better way to handle the situation, and as stronger evidence of my own sin than of my children’s.

  • http://www.ifmeadowsspeak@blogspot.com tammy@meadows speak

    God didn’t attempt to “break” Pharoh’s will when Moses commanded to let His people go. He, God, let it be hard and even allowed it to be hardened. The thing that I find that needs “broken” is my flesh, BUT not by someone beating it out of me, but rather, by God’s beautiful Grace loving it out of me. I do talk about “brokeness” but in the sense that out of love I cheerfully submit to the Holy Spirit. Not a man, a spiritual authority that’s outside of Jesus. if Jesus is my head, then I’m able to love in the supernatural. My natural is fickle, at best. If a will was meant to be brokem into obedience, then, why would we need the Holy Spirit. God would just use a rod instead.

  • annmarie

    Until I started home schooling I never heard of the Pearls or of breaking a child’s will. It seemed odd to me, but as I surrounded myself with more fundamentalist thinking ( a sad by product of homeschooling where I do is that I was basically confronted with only fundamentalist thinking) I began to question my own parenting, wondering if maybe these people were right. But I kept having weird thoughts about all of it. It never seemed loving or biblical, but being raised Catholic my bible quoting amd memorization were far less impressive than my fundy friends. It wasn’t until I followed my gut and removed myself form these friendships and fully immersed myself in my Catholic faith that I saw how warped their thinking was. Thank God! I feel when we are at are most insecure is when we fall prey to this bizarre way of thinking.

  • James

    Why would Jesus pray “Not my will but yours be done” Luke 22:42 if He did not see the need to have His will broken?

    Again, I am not making pro-pearl comments, but I believe the Bible clearly demonstrates the necessity for our sinful human wills to be broken by Christ and the Holy Spirit in order to bring ourselves into submission of God’s perfect will. That’s what sanctification is, the process of allowing the Holy Spirit to take our will and over time make it God’s will. The Elisabeth Elliot quote listed about is very insightful…

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      When Jesus prayed “not My will, but Yours be done” this was an example of Him cooperating with His Father and YIELDING His will. This was NOT about Jesus needing His will to be broken–for goodness sakes, how would that even be possible since Jesus had said that He and the Father were one? The Bible does not ‘clearly demonstrate’ the necessity for our wills to be broken–that is simply your personal interpretation of Scripture and additionally, your personal definition of sanctification. Nowhere does Jesus teach that our wills must be broken as a form of sanctification. God gave you FREE will and it cannot be truly free if sanctification requires Him breaking it by force.

      • James

        I guess we might be defining “will” and “broken/yielded” differently. I see them as the same thing, see definition of yield http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/yield particularly 3b

        (always define your terms) :-)

        When sin entered the world through Adam and Eve the “free will” which God gave to them was forever lost. Here is an article that better explains what I mean. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/questions/freewill.html

        So, yes I believe that our wills must be broken by the Grace and calling of God

      • James

        Also Hebrews Chapter 12 makes a very strong argument for pretty powerful discipline by God to his children.

        • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

          Let’s not conflate “discipline” with using violence in an effort to control another. God does not do that and trying to twist the Holy Scriptures to imply he does is pretty despicable. Hebrews 12 fits perfectly and naturally with the parenting ideas of natural and logical consequences. None of which requires violence.

          • http://Scott, James

            Scott, look at the passage and look at the definition of discipline… http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discipline?show=0&t=1313727278

            If you do so, it does not mesh perfectly and logically with the idea of natural consequences. As a loving father, God disciplines us to avoid allowing natural consequences to end us. As a parent it is my job to discipline my children to avoid allowing natural consequences to bring greater harm to them. Is spanking the only way to do this? by no means, but it can be one tool incorporated into a larger array of methods. Also, God is not just a God of love… The scriptures are full of examples of him inflicting judgement/discipline on individuals, nations and even the whole world (the flood)

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      p.s. James, I know you’re not making pro-pearl comments..you’re asking good, legitimate questions! Thank you! :)

    • HippieGramma

      “Why would Jesus pray “Not my will but yours be done” Luke 22:42 if He did not see the need to have His will broken?”

      The key there is — HE saw the need. He ashed for it. He did not have that beaten into Him by his parents or some other authority figure, as far as we know. And if He had, and we needed to know that, wouldn’t our omniscient omnipresent God thought to have included it somewhere?

  • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

    For the record, I sometimes state things strongly in an effort to get people to really think rather than rehash the same old tired rote statements. With that in mind, I have a question.

    How would you react if others treated you the way you treat your children?

    Think about that one for a while.

    • James

      Scott, I would respectfully ask you, how do you know how I treat my children?

      • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

        I have no idea how anyone I personally don’t know treats their children. That wasn’t a question with any assumed answer. It was an open question I posed hoping parents would consider it in the context of their own personal experience. And I also have no idea what conclusion any given parent would reach. It’s a question to think about, not some sort of rhetorical or trick question. I happen to think it’s a pretty important question. If you’ve never asked it of yourself, perhaps you should. If you have asked it, then that’s great!

      • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

        Oh, I think I see. My comment came after your comment. That was an accident of timing. It wasn’t a reply to you. It was a general comment on the post and the whole thread.

        • James

          okay, after last night’s posting and then how it came right after mine, I wrongly “assumed” that you were asking it of me. I also wrote a rather lengthy comment on your post from this morning that I would love to dialogue further on. Just ignore the part about the “assumption” :-)

  • http://sevenlittleaustralians.blogspot.com/ Erin

    Whenever I have come across the broken will ideology I’ve really struggled. “Why?” Why would you want your children’s will to be broken?? aside from finding it incredibly sad and dangerous on many levels, I WANT children with strong wills. Strong to say YES to Christ, strong to say NO to evil. I can’t see how this can happen if their wills are broken.

    • KatR

      I’ve always wondered about this exact thing. Children NEED a strong will in order to maintain their own ideas of what is right, even when parents or other adults aren’t around.

  • Valerie

    I think too that when you say you don’t spank your children people immediately think you are lenient and raising a bunch of reprobates. On the contrary, it takes far more effort to train and guide and position your children to make good and wise choices. You can’t sit on your butt by the computer all day, for example. ;)

    At the end of the day, spanking is quick and easy and I can see why people do it….but, as I said on your other post, I am beginning to question more and more about the validity of this parenting option.

  • FinallyDone

    …I know it’s doubtful that you’ll post my comment but I hope you consider what I’ve shared. I’ve followed your blog through the years & am amazed at the journey you’ve taken since leaving our old church. Your faith has not been shipwrecked (sadly, I know MANY for whom this is the case) and your family is intact. I guess I just share these things w/you because you’re publically accessible, to an extent, whereas your parents are not. Trust me when I say that MANY of us are out here still waiting to hear from them.

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      FinallyDone: thank you. I appreciate your words and please know that if there was every anything I did to hurt you, I am deeply sorry. My very best hopes and prayers are with you. Hugs. EE.

  • Thundafive

    I’m an Atheist, but the underlying message is absolutely moving.

  • http://www.guggiedaly.blogspot.com Guggie Daly

    I have been trying to get this thought out. You put it down very eloquently. I have tried pointing out to other Christian parents…if we break their wills, if we demand obedience, then we are causing our children to stumble.

    If putting out will at God’s feet is admirable/the right thing to do…then the stronger the will, the more admirable it is to “yield” to God.

    Dragging someone to God’s feet has no merit. If it is not freely given, then where is the honor, the sacrifice, the love and meaning?

  • Anima

    Someone recommends spanking babies of 6 months, and isn’t in jail?
    Unbeliaveble.

  • Charissa

    Thank you SO much for posting about this subject. I retweeted/FB’d your story and your blog to bring awareness. I was surprised how many “normal” and “mainline” Christians responded that the book and the book’s methods were good/great/being used. The logic was “Why didn’t someone in the community speak out against the abuse.” My response was that the community overlooked it b/c they themselves were doing the same thing! I am horrified and we must speak up for children! It is wrong, controlling and violent. Thank you!

  • http://www.shackbible.com ShackBibleGuy

    I think this “break their will” idea has roots in a theology where God is visioned as a dude who hoards power, and commands everyone to act like they like it. In other words, if our theology tells us that God has to break our will, then it makes sense to do that to our children. It’s my hunch that a more relational (Trinitarian) vision of God can heal this problem at the root. The Shack is a good example of a more relational theology finding its way into popular culture.

  • MichaelP

    I think we are dealing with a bad understanding of “broken”. I think we need to focus more on what the will is being broken from rather than the will itself. If I want to conform my will to God’s, then I must brake it/detach it from the world first. A child, is under the authority of a parent, we are not called to be their friends first. We are stewards of our children and should serve them as Christ serves His Church as Head. We should do everything possible, in accordance with Church teachings, to “brake” or detach our children’s will from that of this world. Yes, they ultimately have to do this themselves but they need help and guidance just like everyone else. No one can do it alone.

    Pax Christi.

  • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

    I’ll add another note. As I mentioned above, my perspective goes further than the one Elizabeth espouses. But as I tried (and probably failed) to explain in my post to which she linked, there’s a reason for that.

    I don’t believe we can do anything about the problem of the teachings of the Pearls, Dobson, and countless others without eliminating the soil which nourishes them. The reaction I hear to cases like that of Lydia Schatz from many is, “That’s awful, but…”

    It’s the “but” that tells the tale. They have to minimize and except their own use of physical violence against their children from the awful extremes. I actually do understand that psychological need. However, it’s the “but” which fertilizes the soil in which these horrors are bred. That’s what I meant in my post when I named it “sin”. We’ve collectively provided the ground which nourishes those horrors. We all share in the responsibility for them. In the terms the NT uses, we need to repent. We need to turn from the path of death onto the path of life. Other than to my children (which is no small thing), it matters relatively little what I do or believe personally. It’s only when we are all willing to face the soil we have created and vow to salt it and leave it barren that it will make a difference on a larger scale.

  • Rick Cruse

    I wish I’d thought more clearly about this issue when (or before) my kids were young. (btw, they’re 29, 31, and 33 now.) I remember a big change when the middle one, at age ten, turned to us after a spanking and said, “do you think this will change me? It just makes me mad.” never spanked him again. I made oh, so many mistakes as a father. By the grace of God my kids love me deeply and invite me into their lives. How grateful I am for this though I worked against it as a young father.

  • Java

    I have read this book, and never anywhere in there did I read anything about beating children severely .  Giving a child a swat on the butt or hand is not beating a child to death.  To associate this book with some wack job parents who decided to beat their child to death is a misrepresentation of what this book is all about. Everyone is entitled to their own style of parenting but last time I checked no one died from from a spank on the butt.  These people were clearly not mentally stable and not able to interpret the book in the right way.