Our Daughters Need A New Narrative!

Posted on August 14, 2011 by elizabeth

It’s late but the thoughts are coming fast and I can’t sleep because I keep thinking about my daughters. I refrained from commenting publicly on Don Miller’s post about how “girls” can live a better love story because, well, I was wrapped up in Bolivia. But I read it. And his words shook me to my core.

You have to understand, I loved Don Miller.

I mean, I’ve read every single one of his books. Blue Like Jazz was one of the first books I read coming out of the fundamentalist cult of my childhood. It gave me hope that there could be a Different Way for me to experience my faith.

And now I’m sitting here asking myself: are we still here? I mean, REALLY?! Are my daughters still going to have to deal with the same kind of patriarchal crap I had to deal with in my twenties?

Is there some sort of freak resurgence of patriarchal oppression that is so seductive it’s even winning over men like Don Miller?

I cannot bear to imagine that even mega-popular Christian authors like Don Miller are still being allowed to publish such horrifically degrading material. Yeah. I said ALLOWED. Who are the Christian publishers and Christian clearing houses and churches and conferences that keep PAYING men to broadcast their hurtful, anti-Christian, anti-woman ideas?

When does a Christian publishing house finally say: ENOUGH! We will no longer publish authors who have written material that is harmful and hurtful to women and children–even if it was only on a “whim” on their blogs?

Yes. I am shaking mad. I held it off for two weeks because I wanted to devote my sole attention to Bolivia. But now I’m home. And I’m raising my daughters. I have to be honest: I fear for my daughters.

I saw firsthand in Bolivia what oppression of women looks like and you know what? It’s horrific. I thought the church in America had progressed far beyond what I saw in Bolivia, but after reading Don Miller’s posts and worst of all, seeing the HUGE outpouring of support and love and acclamation he received—I honestly fear that the church in America is in danger of resurrecting the old oppression.

Mothers! We cannot let this happen!

OUR DAUGHTERS NEED A NEW NARRATIVE.

Who will give it to them? Who will encourage them to write their own narrative? I want to say how proud I was of my friend, Rachel Held Evans, who spoke up against Don’s post.

I also want to say thank you to the Godly men I have the privilege of knowing in real life and here on this blog for whom the oppression of women is a scourge they work daily to rectify.

Please. Help us write a new narrative for our daughters! We can do this!

p.s. if you haven’t read the now-deleted Don Miller posts, I’m not sure how to retrieve cached articles–my apologies–I’m sure someone super smart and techy will post a link to them in the comments, yes? updated: thanks to my techy readers, i was able to link to the cached article. thanks, yo! y’all are the bomb-diggity!

p.p.s yeah, i know i said i was going to keep comments closed for awhile. but then i kept coming up with all these new posts that just beg for discussion! so COMMENTS OPEN!

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  • Angelina Littrell

    What the heck? I wish I would have read them. Like you, his book Blue Like Jazz was INSTRUMENTAL in changing my Christian world view! I have bought for and recommended his book to so many people. I live in Portland. His world is my world. You can’t help but have a completely different world view living in Portland. I am so sorry for what he said, whatever it may have been because his words and books are the most genuine article I have ever read so I can’t even fathom he would be falling into the trap of oppression. Wow!

  • http://somewiseguy.com ThatGuyKC

    I’m always extremely hesitant to weigh in on posts like this because I’m a guy and feel like my opinion is discounted. However, I am a father to a little girl who I’m dedicated to raising into a strong, godly, independent woman.

    While I DO NOT agree with everything Donald Miller shared in his posts I think the spirit in which he shared them was good willed. I also think that his apology and however he decides to republish the same posts deserves significant mention.

  • http://www.atlumschema.com Andy

    Hi Elizabeth. I read these posts when Miller first put them up and had a huge sinking feeling. It felt a bit like I was reading the words of Mark Driscoll. It is a destructive narrative, and one which is detrimental to both men and women. It reinforces the subservience of women and inadequacy of men – it is a way of seeing the world and one another that quells life and removes our ability to be our true selves by making such sweeping generalisations. There is a definite need for a new narrative and it is such a shame that those who you would expect to provide that are peddling the same old crap.

    Anyway, thanks for posting. I had forgotten about this. I do also still have both posts in my RSS reader so if you’d like me to perhaps paste them here or email them to you then I can. He did afterall say “Will you do me a favor and print this blog out and read it with the women in your life who you love, especially the young women who are dating? I think you’ll be shocked at what a great conversation you’ll have when we talk openly about what it takes to live a real love story.” So I think we have permission…

  • http://somewiseguy.com ThatGuyKC

    This will not be popular, but sometimes I wonder if each gender automatically discounts what the other has to say simply because we aren’t the same.

    As a man I find myself naturally skeptical of what women have to say about men. No matter the motivation.

    I’ve also noticed that woman are highly sensitive to what men have to say about women. No matter the intention.

    I wonder if a deep breath, the benefit of the doubt and a measure of grace isn’t in order more often.

    That being said I am glad for civil discourse and for the conversation between Rachel and Donald. I’m looking forward to the end result. I hope we do not become incited prematurely. Especially in the face of an honest apology.

    • http://www.alanmolineaux.com Alan Molineaux

      It is easier to be dispassionate when the subject doesn’t directly affect you.

      Accusing women of being too emotional in their comments shows that you do not understand what it is like to be commented on in such a way. If you did you too might respond with a healthy degree of emotion.

      • ThatGuyKC

        Hi Alan,
        I was not trying to be dispassionate nor did I accuse women of being too emotional. As a husband to an amazing woman and father to a little girl I think this topic does directly effect me.

        I was trying to point out that BOTH SEXES are sensitive to authoritative remarks made about their sex by someone of the opposite gender. I even admitted to being this way myself.

        I am sorry that my words came across this way. Please see my extensive comment below apologizing to Elizabeth and explaining the context of what I wrote.

        • http://www.alanmolineaux.com Alan Molineaux

          Sorry if I read you wrong KC

          All the best

          Al

    • KatR

      I don’t think that I am being “highly sensitive” to find Miller’s use of the word “slut” degrading and inexcusable.

      • ThatGuyKC

        I’d be surprised if you weren’t highly sensitive. I’m very sensitive myself to sweeping derogatory statements made by women about men.

        I’m sorry that my comment didn’t communicate the message I intended. I am responsible for that. I’m sorry. Please read my extended comment below.

        • KatR

          I read it. Much appreciated, KC.

    • http://www.alise-write.com Alise

      I think there’s probably some truth in what you’re saying here. I definitely am more wary of “women behave this way” from men than I am from other women. That said, if a woman had written what Don did, I would have been just as irritated by it. Actually, I probably would have been MORE irritated by it because a woman should know better.

      What is frustrating to me is that so much of the inherent sexism was completely missed. Yeah, it’s easy to see it when he talks about women wanting to have their love stories written by the men in their lives, but not so much on the “slutty” comments. Or that his example of a female author was a character in a book spelled incorrectly. Or that sexuality was the sole determining factor in a woman’s love story, while it was only a part of the whole when writing to men.

      The “unseen” sexism is what is most troubling to me because I really don’t think he realized it at all (and his reactions to criticism bear that out, IMO). Even when it’s pointed out, the response is to deny that it’s sexist. THAT is what I fear for with my kids. Not that they won’t encounter sexism. Of course they will. But that it will be so normal that they don’t see it when it happens and may even perpetuate it.

      • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

        Alise, you just knocked it out da park! Thank YOU!

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      KC, you know I like you. But I’m honestly just totally floored, here. There is no “automatic” discounting of what Don Miller had to say—I’ve read what he’s had to say about EVERYTHING for the past 8 years. This isn’t about being “highly sensitive”–honestly, you suggesting that sounds so…condescending. Women are often accused of being “too sensitive” and it’s an underhanded way of telling them that what they’re experiencing is not valid, not real, not worthy of respect. ALL of us SHOULD be “highly sensitive” when a man uses degrading language against women–indeed, we should be outraged! As Andy wrote in another comment, this is a destructive narrative and one that is detrimental to BOTH men and women.

      And now you’re suggesting that I’m becoming “incited prematurely”? What? KC, when ANY of us see blatant injustice being done, we don’t have to wait around and hope for a positive end result. We stand up and address it.

    • Leanne

      Often times, those in “power”–and just being a man automatically gives you power–you may not feel it, you may not feel respected but you have power simply by default–back to the statement I started—–Often times those in “power” do not realize the power they have and how simply their presence can intimidate, quiet or dismiss someone.
      By stating that women can be too sensitive is in a way to dismiss. Do you know the story of each woman you consider to be too sensitive? I have been dismissed as a woman. I heard God calling me to serve–I was given three options: children’s ministry, song leader, or pastor’s wife.–I watched as men were groomed and mentored into ministry. But I was given these three options and dismissed. No one bothered to hear me. No one bothered to discover I am a match to dynamite with children–after 5 minutes I lose their attention and control of the room. They love me because I have no control. No one bothered to listen to me howl (I can’t carry a tune.) and as for being a pastor’s wife—I found in seminary and Bible college–if you can’t sing or play the piano, pastors to be overlook you as a potential wife. So maybe I am a little more sensitive because people have tried to fit me into their understanding of a woman’s role. But maybe, how you word things can help me not be so sensitive and on the defensive.

      • ThatGuyKC

        You are so right. As a man I am unaware of the “power” I have by default. I am sorry that I offended. My words were irresponsible at best. Please read my extended response and apology below.

        • Leanne

          I was not offended, KC, and I thank you for your apology. I wanted you to hear why many of us are “sensitive.” I didn’t hear in you a person who knowingly offends or keeps women in their place. Thank you again for your apology. I offer you the hand of peace virtually now, someday face to face.

  • D

    EE, Excellent post. You said everything I wanted to and much better than I ever could. Brava!

    To the two male commenters: while understand your wish for both “sides” to try to understand the other with respect and grace, there is a significant history of men using their privilege to instruct women in how to be good/virtuous/feminine/etc. And there is an equally significant history of men silencing women who don’t conform to their ideals. Even the very use of the term, “slut” is an attempt to shame women into proper behavior. When men act in accordance with their shameful history of sexism, of course I will dismiss what they have to say – they have completely lost my respect. And that, honestly, is why I didn’t comment on or respond to donald miller’s posts in any way.

    Thank you, EE, for saying what needed to be said. :)

  • http://www.alanmolineaux.com Alan Molineaux

    Hey

    I just wanted to add my support to what you are saying. 

    As a father of four beautiful daughters I too was dismayed at Donald’s comments. Having appreciated his other work I could not quite believe he had written it. 

    I agree that we need to be involved in providing a new narrative and hope that you continue adding your thoughts to this subject. 

    For others who do not feel the same passion as we do about this I would say:

    1. It does not matter that Don has either removed the blog or apologised (an apology for upset caused is not the same as retracting what has been said BTW). The fact that a well meaning and thoughtful author should not have understood how offensive his words would be shows that this type of view goes to the very core of our culture and needs to receive continued comments in order to root it out. 

    2. The fact that some women have supported his view does not add validity; it just shows again how deep rooted the problem is. It is the Fox News kind of characterisation but said with a reasoned voice. 

    3. I felt different levels of dismay as I read the piece; the reference to a woman’s past being slutty was one thing. The idea that women without a man cry into their pillow was another. But perhaps the saddest sentiment was that a woman can only be fulfilled or validated by a man; this was the most revealing part of the blog. 
    The deep narrative of the Jesus story is that fulfilment and validation come through God alone. 

    To my daughters, and any others who wish to be adopted for the sake of this sentiment, I would say your very created existence is validation enough. If your narrative happens to include a man let it be one who seeks to applaud your already given validity rather than seeking to provide it. 

    Save your pillows for resting on in peace rather than crying into. 

  • Bev Molineaux

    Hi Elizabeth I felt exactly the same way and was shocked to be reading from a well respected writer rhetoric that I only thought men like Mark Driscoll would use.
    What remains even after an apology and a withdrawn blog is the fact that this is how he feels. How can I read any of his future work not in the light of this?
    And yes we are called to forgive but we cannot stand by and not put a stake in the ground and say this has to stop.
    I am a mum of 4 beautiful grown women. I have been in the church since childhood. I have lead church alongside my husband for many years.
    I want to see a different future for my daughters and grandchildren. One where women are treated equally, all their dreams and aspirations fulfilled
    in whatever they choose to do or to be.
    The old saying ‘sticks and stones will break your bones but words will never hurt you’ could never have been further away from the truth in this new blogging era.

  • http://www.walkingtochina.blogspot.com Sandy

    I skimmed the Donald Miller posts after I read Rachel Held Evan’s post. While I disagreed with much of what he said, comparing him to the patriarchal movement and saying that you fear for your daughter seems quite extreme. His posts may have been poorly written but as a whole he has shown tremendous grace in his writing. We should show him the same.

    • KatR

      I don’t think Don is turning quiverfull or anything like that. But it scares me that a guy can go from “Blue Like Jazz” to what he just wrote. It should be the opposite, I think.

  • http://tricias.tumblr.com/ Tricia

    He took it down: http://donmilleris.com/2011/08/11/how-to-delete-a-good-love-story/

    Which is actually a little more annoying than the fact that it was posted.

  • http://tricias.tumblr.com/ Tricia
  • http://tricias.tumblr.com/ Tricia
  • http://hereisthechurch.wordpress.com Allie

    Hm…didn’t get a chance to read it. I couldn’t find it in Google Cache or the Way Back Machine either, so I’m not sure if there’s another way to get it…

  • http://mommainprogress.blogspot.com Momma in Progress

    I never read the original post(s) and since they have been taken off his blog, I don’t really feel able to comment on what he said, but now I’m very curious. Super smart techie, where are you?

  • Agnes
  • http://www.JanetOberholtzer.com Janet Oberholtzer

    I think he deleted the articles, not just archive them … so I don’t think you’ll be able to pull them up.

    I also had liked the majority of Don Miller’s writings and was disappointed when I read those posts.

    I have 3 sons, no daughters … and I’ve tried my darnest to teach my boys a different narrative then what is often taught concerning male and female.

    In my early 20′s, when I left the strict traditional Mennonite church I grew up (my entire family is still there) and became part of the conservative evangelical world I thought I had left the men-rule ideas behind. With time, I was sad to realize many of them were still present, just expressed differently. So now I find I don’t trust any church or even the Christian culture, so I’m a church nomad, attending church here or there occasionally, but not calling any of them home.

    And I agree while he didn’t ask women to wear head coverings and floor length skirts, the idea behind some of his thoughts smelled of the same ideas … and I think it is wrong.

  • http://moss-place.stblogs.org Peony Moss

    Here’s a link to the cache of “How to live a Great Love Story, Vol 1 (For the Girls)”

    http://tinyurl.com/MillerGirls

  • KatR

    “Blue Like Jazz” was also a book that cracked open the door of freedom for me. I loved “A Million Miles” as well. So there was a definite feeling of “Et tu, Brute”, when I read the posts, especially the one directed toward women.

    And YES, there absolutely needs to be a better story for women than “your main goal in life is to keep your legs together while you wait for Mr. Right”.

  • http://www.sundayschoolrebel.typepad.com Sam

    I’m willing to give Don Miller some grace. I love what you have to say in your last post (so much!) and was glad Rachel had the cojones to call him out. Many of us really like him as an author and I don’t think we should “Farewell” him just yet. I thought about that – if that post could cause problems for him later, with his publishing company. And I hope not, because blogs are such different animals than books, you know? Sometimes we’re living through something, processsing it, and our thoughts aren’t quite perfected. Now, if this line of thought had gone on and on, that would be a different story.

    Still, I am shocked that he thinks like this. I wonder if he will now examine all these thoughts, bring them out into the light, poke them, test them. He definitely got a lot of feedback (and I read more negative than positive). I kept thinking about Anne Lamott -I know they’ve connected, author-to-author, and how she would totally RIP HIM A NEW ONE. Maybe this will be a sort of revolution for him. I really hope so.

  • Leanne

    I remember reading some pieces by Martin Luther King, Jr. I don’t have the quote word for word but I remember him saying something which has stuck with me. He said something to the point of, “we seek justice and equality not merely for ourselves but also for the white man’s soul.”

    I remember sitting in a class in seminary on women in church and society. The most powerful moment came when one of the men stood in the class and wept openly. After reading the Scriptures the class was going over, he was convicted. How often was he in a group of people and the women simply handed over the authority to speak or lead in the group to him or another male? How often did he step over the other people after voicing his opinion and believed everyone agreed with him because he didn’t hear anyone speak? He wondered if they didn’t speak because he was a male and they didn’t dare speak, they had been conditioned. He wondered how many times a woman had tried to say something and he dismissed it as emotional, instead of trying to understand. He wept. And in that moment, his soul found a deeper freedom.

  • http://clearingthesill.blogspot.com The Sojourner

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zqnCMG-HUgsJ:donmilleris.com/2011/08/02/how-to-live-a-great-love-story/+/search%3Fhl%3Den%26biw%3D1512%26bih%3D752%26q%3D%2Bsite:donmilleris.com%2Bdonmilleris.com%2B%2BHow%2Bto%2Blive%2Ba%2BGreat%2BLove%2BStory,%2BVol%2B1%2B%28For%2Bthe%2BGirls%29&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

    That big ugly link should take you to the first post, the “for girls” one. I’m not even that techy! I am in awe of the fact that I found that! Except also a little sick, because really? The only thing you have to say to women is “Stop being sluts”? Oh, sorry. He also said, “You should frequently sob into your pillow because you don’t have a man.” I’ve got a better idea. Stop thinking having or not having a man defines your life and get a job or a hobby or go back to school or go on a mission trip to Bolivia. It solves the hooking-up problem (which is a bad idea, I’ll give him that, but I take issue with his emphasis on it being THE problem with women today…) AND the sobbing-into-your-pillow problem.

  • Theresa in Alberta

    Sadly, some “christian publishers” have been bitten by the secular world. It is all about the bottom line. I wonder how many gazillions of $ Hal Lindsay has made from his rapture books.
    we can only control ourselves and keep our wallets and purses firmly CLOSED and donot purchase their books.

  • http://anniesbutterworth.blogspot.com Annie

    Although I agree that we should show Donald Miller grace — we all, I think, have typed things we shouldn’t have typed, published what we shouldn’t have published — I’m still concerned about the overall ideology that seems to be permeating Christian culture. My husband and I don’t have our own children just yet, but in our work with the teenagers at our local congregation, our eyes have been opened to such deep issues, issues I believe may actually be caused by what they’re learning about and hearing at church. My heart breaks especially for the young women. These precious girls are being taught so many wrong things about what their souls need, and it pains me to see so many Christian authors, teachers, and bloggers contributing to that destructive teaching. (I could go on and on and on about what I think it’s doing to the girls the church is raising, but if it’s okay, I’ll just direct you to the post I wrote on the subject instead: http://anniesbutterworth.blogspot.com/2011/08/for-girls-and-its-doozy_12.html)

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      YES! YES! We’ve ALL made mistakes blogging. But you’re right, there’s hurtful theology that is permeating the Christian culture–and THAT’S why it needs to be addressed. Thank you, Annie!

  • http://anniesbutterworth.blogspot.com Annie
    • Tara S

      Oh bless your heart! “No one can protect your heart but you and the God who created you.” What a lesson that was to learn, through hard experience! :-)

  • http://www.mamabean.ca Mama Bean

    I think Miller was right to apologize (obvs) but I think he should have left the posts up, so people could still read what he was apologizing for. Does that make sense? I feel like taking them down was cowardly… and anyway, the internet is forever, so taking them down means almost nothing, because google’s little cache keeps all…

    I guess I am mostly dismayed that we’re still stuck on measuring our adult relationships according to one parameter: sex. I’m pretty sure (and I’ve only been married four years) that my marriage is about so. much. more. than sex. And srsly? As important and ground-shaking and baby-making as sex is, it’s not the most important thing about my marriage either – it’s not the foundation of my love, it’s not the reason for my love, it’s not… it’s just not.

    How about ‘preparing for the marathon’ by reading good books? (And learning how to spell Eyre correctly *ahem*) How about preparing for our future husbands by being educated, by learning self-confidence, by experiencing self-reliance, by doing any number of things that have nothing to do with what I have or have not done with my body???

    When we’re writing this new narrative, can we just STOP putting sex at the top of the list? How to have a good love story; stop thinking it’s about your sex life.

    • http://www.sundayschoolrebel.typepad.com Sam

      Yes! I want to high five you over this!

  • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

    I’ve never truly read anything by Miller, though I have skimmed ‘Blue Like Jazz’ in one of my leisurely trips to the bookstore. I do have a minister friend who has spoken frequently about his work and the impact it had on him. I don’t think I have the sort of background or formation that makes him interesting to so many.

    I’m surprised he tried to remove the posts. I guess he’s learning the lesson people and corporations seem to be repeatedly learning these days. Once you publish something on the Internet, it’s virtually impossible to pull it back. The Internet never forgets. The more attention something gets (which is typically the only reason people try to retract something), the more that’s true. The better approach (in a case like this) would have been to add a note at the top apologizing and perhaps promising to revisit the topic when you’ve had a chance to absorb all the feedback you’ve received. Then just leave it posted with your added note in bold at the top.

    Yes, I do agree that atmosphere and attitude is toxic, but I’ve witnessed how easy it is for people to absorb.

  • ARM

    I somewhat agree with ThatGuyKC (though I’m a woman, so I’m not as scared to say so). Yes, the original posts were obtuse and rather obnoxious, but that seems to happen whenever anybody starts thematizing gender roles so explicitly and theoretically. Not that I don’t believe the sexes are different, but sitting down to talk about the difference like this just seems to bring out the worst in people. I’m catholic and know lots of guys who are really into JPII’s Theology of the Body, who will go on for hours about exactly how men and women are different. They’ll say rather offensive (and very dumb!) things, but I don’t think it’s because they’re misogynists, really – I think it’s that these conversations make them focus so much on women as “other” that they overlook the greater sameness we share, humanity. And I suspect we women oversimplify just as much when we talk about men. I think the best way to learn what the other sex is really like is one on one – I’m only getting started on that myself, being married only eight months so far.

  • http://faithandfood.morizot.net/ Scott Morizot

    I suppose I will add, even though I don’t read deeply of psychology myself, that his pop psychology take on men, women, and relationships is largely incorrect and based on erroneous, though not uncommon, assumptions. Given that psychology is one of my mother’s fields, I thought I ought to mention that.

  • http://www.whisperingsomething.blogspot.com Alexandra

    I managed to read the posts by subscribing to his blog; they showed up on my reader. And I wanted to thank you for your strong, gut response to what he posted. I’ve had to walk through this struggle in my own marriage (still working on it), because I assumed that traditional gender roles were the “biblical” model, and I expected my husband to be some sort of intermediary between myself and God. When he wasn’t (of course) I was really upset. I also tried to live into the role of the quiet, passive wife, which caused him a lot of frustration. He saw leadership abilities in me that I was scared to recognize in myself, and he encouraged me to live into those areas. Our marriage is far from perfect, and I’ve been to counselling about my own issues of what it means to be a woman, but by God’s grace we’re growing and getting better at this whole partnership and friendship thing. It’s been 15 years, and I think things are improving.
    It is incredibly harmful to the church when a mish-mash of Hollywood, Disney Princess stories, Fairytales and select Bible verses is proclaimed as theology. A great deal of the way the church thinks about women is based not on Scripture (which is looked at selectively and often poorly interpreted) but on the traditional victorian high-class ideals, and the leftovers from a time in which success meant being able to afford sufficient servants so that the wifey didn’t have to do anything at all.

  • Tara S

    I think it was actually you, EE, who linked to this YouTube clip of a Sojourner Truth speech some time ago:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsjdLL3MrKk

    And know whenever I hear talk of how women are portrayed or treated as soft and inactive because of our natures and/or abilities, I hear: “Ain’t I a woman?”

    • Tara S

      “now,” not “know.”

  • ThatGuyKC

    Dear EE,
    I would like to apologize. Completely and without excuse. I am sorry. My words were not meant to be hurtful or condescending, but the message they conveyed is my responsibility. I was wrong.

    Dear EE Readers,
    Some context: I was raised to be a chivalrous gentleman and treat women with respect and honor. It is worth noting my mom is a tough, independent lady who received the rank of expert with an M-16 machine gun while she served in the US Navy. She also marched in President Reagan’s inaugural parade as a drum major and was a high school track star. My mother is largely responsible for my perspective of women in general (which I think is only natural). As it happens I married a strong, independent woman who resembles my mom’s better qualities. God bless them both for keeping me on my toes.

    Also, my entire life I have been berated for holding the door and accused of being gay (because I was a virgin before marriage). As you can imagine this gets kind of old after awhile and I allowed some of these emotions to come into play in my comments. I am sorry. I have always tried to be the “nice guy” and I confess to identifying with Miller’s comments about immature young women chasing the “bad boy” before growing up to appreciate the marrying kind (btw, my wife is 3 years older than me).

    When I first read Donald Miller’s posts I did not detect the degree of destructive narrative that has caused so much angst and backlash (NOTE: I DO NOT agree with everything Miller said nor appreciate the explicit nature of his post to “girls”). This has really scared me because I have tried so hard to be a good man. As a father to a precious little girl I want her to have an epic love story (God help the young man who comes knocking on my door someday). It is humbling and frightening to realize I am still so blind/ignorant.

    My comment about being sensitive was not intended to be directed ONLY toward women. I shared “As a man I find myself naturally skeptical of what women have to say about men.” This could have easily been stated, “As a man I am HIGHLY SENSITIVE to what women have to say about men”. I was not trying to single out women, but merely trying to call attention to the tendency of BOTH SEXES to react disproportionately depending on the gender of the speaker/commentor.

    HOWEVER, I am NOT saying that EE’s (Rachel’s or any other concerned woman who commented above) were without cause or overreacting in their response to Miller’s posts. I think he would have been much wiser to write his letter to the guys and have a godly woman write a guest post to the ladies. I can only assume the content and message would have been much different.

    I agree that our daughters (and sons) need a better narrative. I am sorry for the insensitivity of my previous words. Thank you for your bold and honest responses. I am willing to learn and appreciate your grace.

    I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Don’s removal of the posts and the published apology.

    Humbly yours,
    KC

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Ah, KC. You are seriously awesome. All forgiven! Thank you for this abundantly generous and loving comment. I sincerely appreciate you!!! Rock on, my brother!

      • ThatGuyKC

        Thank you for being so gracious. Hopefully your readers will just as forgiving.

    • http://www.alise-write.com Alise

      You have a good heart and you obviously love your wife and kids. I think if we’re out looking for sexism (toward men or women) all the time, we’re going to end up just being angry a lot.

      So we point out sexism when we DO see it. And when we miss it and someone points it out to us, we adjust our behavior accordingly. I think THAT is how we live a better story. We grow, we change, we adapt. Characters that are static are boring. Characters that mature? I like them.

      • ThatGuyKC

        Well said my friend. Thank you.

    • http://www.adamshome.blogspot.com erin

      KC,
      What a man!
      (p.s. My husband’s own parents thought he was gay, until he brought me home to meet them. Makes me so mad that guys are expected to be promiscuous in order to be “normal”. Wrong, wrong. Men are stronger than that!!)

  • Kelly

    We cannot be lured into the delusion that demeaning talk against women(or anyone for that matter) doesn’t have a profound affect on those who are listening.

    In a church board meeting once, where I was being rebuked for my plans to remarry after a divorce, one of the church leaders accused me of being sexually inappropriate w/my fiance. He had no reason for this accusation, other than the fact we held hands in church. When I denied his accusation, he referred to me as “Monica Lewinski”. (Meaning that I was denying having sex but was actually doing “other things”.) In front of the entire board. Who remained silent.

    This was a man who had frequently shared his pre-Christ sexual sin stories with others and had actually publicly confessed that he struggled w/pornography. Apparently, the hypocrisy of his words passed right by a board of spiritual leaders, women as well as men. I had been a faithful wife to my first husband, who committed adultery repeatedly and chose that lifestyle over his family. I had not been sexually immoral, and gave no reason for anyone to think so. Still, I was the slut.

    I was horrified, not just because of what he was accusing me of and how ugly his words were, but that he would label a young girl like Monica as sexually immoral for something that had happened years ago. As if that was all she was. She was forever defined by the mistakes that she made way back then. Unlike him. He was to be forgiven, to live in the confidence that he was more than the sum of his past, forgiven sins. She was a slut. Not a child of God, not a precious lost one, not worthy of love and honor and respect. Horrifying!

    These words did not come out of a vacuum. They are nurtured by degrading thoughts, by the tolerance of rude words and harsh attitudes. I dislike disrespectful jokes about men as much as I dislike them about women. They should never be tolerated in a Christian. Jesus was adamant about how we should be speaking about each other, and to each other, and it begins in how we are thinking about each other. The battle is in the mind. The words, the actions are the fruit of what we allow to fill our thoughts.

    The church went on to vote this fellow in as their pastor, with the full support of the board who heard those horrid words come from his mouth. Needless-to-say, we do not attend there any more. I don’t hate this man, or hold bitterness against the board. I know the fruit of this thinking is a reality in their lives, and I pray that God will shine His light of truth and love onto their lives. Whenever I remember the pain of those words, I use the memory as an opportunity to pray for Monica Lewinksy, that God would reach into her heart and show her that the lies of this world are not from Him, and that His love for her endures forever. That she is more than the sins of her past, that she is of great value and worth, that she is profoundly and deeply loved by the God of the universe. What the evil one meant for evil, God turns to good.

  • Tara S

    I’m having so many thoughts, one after the other! :-) We do need men. We need men to be what they were created to be – but they were not created to write our story for us! Merciful heaven, what a blasphemous idea.

    I think it’s a common misapprehension, that because of a general aggregate female tendency toward being “relational” and “receptive”, we are seen as passive and waiting for things to happen to us, and in this light are prone to be defined by our sexual nature (diminished to no more than a “wife-in-waiting”). I can see how the mistake can arise, but it is a mistake of an enormous magnitude, which takes away all our credit for agency and for having separate characters, goals, and lives. It really does put the man in position as intermediary between women and Christ, and it’s a darned, inaccurate, destructive shame. Such a light shade in semantics, such a huge chasm in reality…

  • http://www.alanmolineaux.com Alan Molineaux

    Donald’s post is also here on my blog

    http://www.alanmolineaux.com

  • http://www.thegreenlife05.blogspot.com stephanie

    Here is my response, if anyone is interested: http://thegreenlife05.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-our-daughters-really-need.html

    Glad you liked it, Elizabeth.

  • http://brokentelegraph.com Tiffany

    I have to admit, I have not really paid much attention to Don Miller or his posts as of late. I’ve seen some craziness happening in the blogging community but I’ve had no energy to enter into it. I’m pregnant and trying to not puke up my toes. My husband just had back surgery and is flat on his back for 7 more weeks. The last three (with him flat on his back) have rattled me. I’m not sure my brain can handle much more. Am I being ignorant by not being informed of what is going on? Probably. Please forgive me. I might read his original post if I have a spare minute because all the talk does indeed have me interested.

    However, my comment plays more to the overall point of your post. Our daughters DO need a new narrative. Seriously. I’m terrified that this little peanut inside my tummy is a girl. Not that I can not love a girl. I can. I can already picture what she might look like and I love every thing about her.
    However, the other day, while radio station surfing I fell on a song that had a catchy beat. So, I stayed on the song. I heard the lyrics “please don’t take this the wrong way but you look better with the lights off…better with the lights off…” and I changed the station – and prayed RIGHT there that I have a boy.
    I remembered so many years of spending HOURS in the bathroom getting ready to head out to clubs just to meet boys who might make me feel pretty for a minute…get me to compromise…and move on. I’m terrified that I’ll somehow raise a girl who thinks as little of herself as I did.
    I want SO badly to raise a girl who knows that in her heart she is WORTH WHILE just because she exists. Because she is someone all on her own and needs no other human to justify her existence.

    Yet in today’s society I’m worried that I’ll have to sequester her to an island with just my husband and I to achieve it. I know it takes a community to raise a child – but I’ve seen the community and I’m sort of scared to have it’s help.

    I believe we’ve come a long way – but we have SOOOOO far to go.
    This post was so truthful, and timely. Thank you for writing it.

  • http://www.seekingfaithfulnessblog.blogspot.com Holly

    Here’s what I’m thinking. Don’s fiance must be a more conservative type – perhaps even a bit fundamentalist – because he really has changed recently. He’s done a complete turnabout from his early books, when he identified what was really ugly about some sectors of Christianity.

    It’s so strange, isn’t it? And yeah, he did apologize, and I thought that was good and kind and right….but the fact that he wrote the words in the first place, even as a rough draft…well, can you come out that entirely misrepresentative of your true feelings in a rough draft?

    The more I thought about it, the more it sounded like he was defending men and blaming women as the cause of most immorality and premarital sex. That’s bizarre, coming from Donald Miller.

    I also found it really strange to be lectured on how to live a good love story, seeing as how I’ve been married 22 years and he’s been married…oh, wait….he’s not! :) Have we also not learned by this point, Donald, that it is best to LIVE the story before we write about it and lecture others about it? He’s kinda a “professional” writer, not just a beginner blogger. Rough draft or no, it was still wrong! Love has addled his brain, maybe?

    And yes….to the person who mentioned above the thought that marriage and relationships are about more than sex…YES, so true! The physical side of marriage is so incredible, but it’s so much more than that, too, and I wish the new narrative (you hope to write) includes that!

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      Oh, Holly. I think I need to write a blog post called: Sex is Awesome. But It’s Not Everything.
      :)

  • http://outofthesilverchair.blogspot.com/ Julie

    You know, Holly…I thin you are onto something….Don’s latest posts have had a condescending touch to them…and it’s a shame. “Searching for God Knows What” got me through some of the roughest days of being outside a cult.

    Maybe the aliens have really landed and they took Don over first…LOL…
    BTW…why is he cracking on Taylor Swift? I loved her song “Mean”…it is perfect response to bullying/abuse. Nothing fluffy there…

  • http://outofthesilverchair.blogspot.com/ Julie

    ooooopsss….meant “think” not “thin”…can anyone tell I really, and I mean REALLY need some time off work.

    BTW…EE…loved, loved, loved seeing Bolvia through your eyes. I am working right now on my crocheted animals for my Samaritan Purse Christmas boxes. I will be sponsering a little Bolvian peep through your site when my next pay check comes through…

  • Joslyn

    (long vent ahead, please feel free to edit for space)

    If Donald Miller had said “don’t hook up” to men AND women in one post, and used the same language and judgments with the women as he did with the men, it wouldn’t have bothered me. My problem was the double standard; who does he think these “girls”were having sex with? Men! Yet in his “For the guys” post, the language was much more respectful towards men (no one was called a slut or a boy, for one thing). That post also left me with the impression that he was blaming women for luring men into hook-ups. This line in particular jumped out from his “for the guys” post”

    ”To be sure, there are plenty of girls who actually just want to be used for sex, but remember, Proverbs says stay away from these women. Seriously, I’ve taken the bait a couple times and it’s a living nightmare.”

    Why is it that when he refers to his past, he talks about “taking the bait” as if he were a passive victim of girls who “just want to be used for sex”? (Won’t even touch that last part or this will be even longer.) If he’s going to call women “sluts” in the post addressed to them, then he should lose the double standard in the “guys” post and come out and say, “I’ve used women for sex too. Yes, I was a slut and I’m not proud of it.”

    (Or am I misreading what he means by “taking the bait” right after he talks about “these women”? I interpreted the quote above to mean he was alluding to his own sexual past. It’s hard to tell for sure, because when it comes to his own history, he uses much gentler language and more rationalization than he does when shaming “girls” for their “slutty season.”)

    If he’s never hooked up, he should say that. But if he has hooked up, he shouldn’t water it down by saying he’d “taken the bait.” A writer should understand the power of words and realize that you can’t save the nice, passive, innocent words for yourself while lobbing the hot-button words at others.

    After reading the two posts and his apology, my instincts are telling me he has guilt from his own past and it’s seeping into his writing. You know what I would have really respected? If he’d confessed his own sexual sins (not details or names, just generalities), owned up to them and not acted like he was the innocent victim of a “Christian seductress.” If women can’t make alcohol an excuse, then men can’t make women an excuse.

    The whole thing is one double standard unfolding into another double standard. He writes that men should be the authors of a woman’s love story (whatever that means) and yet, he doesn’t take accountability for his own sexual story.

    If he doesn’t want to discuss his own sexual sins, fine, but then don’t write a shaming post that divides women into nice girls and sluts without realizing that they are all women, and sometimes, the very same women that Christian men have used. Whatever happened to, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Or removing the plank from your own eye?

    (And for the record, I’m not writing this long vent because I’ve been used by Christian men–I’m happily married to a great Christian man who would never even use the word “slut,” let alone type it out on the Internet. But I have to call out a double standard when I see it.)

    • Joslyn

      P.S. In reviewing my comment, I realize I wrote something misleading when I said If he’s going to call women “sluts” in the post addressed to them…”

      Upon re-reading his post, I see that he didn’t call any women sluts, as a noun, so I shouldn’t have put quotes around that word. He did talk about women going through “slutty seasons” and he used slutty as an adjective a few other times, which is why I misheard it in my mind. However, I should have double checked the post before I used quotation marks around “slut” as a noun and I apologize for that.

      I still hold my original opinions about the double standard.

    • http://bunkersdown.com Ami

      I agree. I wouldn’t be quite as offended if he would have used similar language/chastisement with the boys. In the post to the girls, he said over and over, ‘be honest that you went through a slutty stage,’ and all that jazz. Yet the boys weren’t told to own up to their own sexual sins at all. They were encouraged to ‘not be trapped.’
      I hate, hate, hate, this sexual double standard that seems to permeate Christian society.

  • http://leannesmusings.wordpress.com Leanne

    What struck me in reading this was that sexual baggage seems to be the ONLY baggage that one can bring into a relationship. Donald Miller, in this post, has succumbed to the typical evangelical Christian idea that sexual sin is the “worst sin.” That a woman who has had sex before has no chance of truly being loved by her future spoues – that she will be loved as a “charity case” rather than as an equal. Apparently Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross wasn’t big enough to cover THOSE types of sins! There are many, many issues that both men AND women can bring into a serious relationship or a marriage – most of them have nothing to do with sex. Marriage is about weathering the hard times and sticking by each other through the crap that happens [and it does happen - whether it is brought in by one or both parties, or is accummulated after the fact!] – any man worth his salt is going to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Does Christ see us as a charity case? I am certainly glad that the answer to that is a big, fat NO!!! If a husband sees his wife as a charity case, then he is doing something wrong and should shoulder the blame – not his wife, for something she may or may not have done in the past!!! Ugh. And I say this as a person who was a virgin on my wedding night, as was my spouse. And I liked Blue Like Jazz, too. Still…ugh.

  • http://www.moonchild11.wordpress.com moonchild11

    thanks for expressing so many of my feelings. I was deeply hurt by the Donald Miller posts as well. Then, after reading some of the reactions and after reading his apology I thought, “Did I over-react? Am I hyper-sensitive?”

    But after reading your last post and this one, I am convinced that I was right to be hurt and angry. I forgive Donald Miller and plan on continuing to read his writing, but I need to realize that he is a product of a patriarchal society. He needs to be set free from those thoughts as much as we women who are still struggling with them do. It’s okay to be sensitive to injustice. To ignore it would be detrimental to women AND to Donald Miller and others like him.

  • http://www.likeawarmcupofcoffee.com Sarah Mae

    It sounds to me like Don was writing out of his own wounds, and perhaps hit publish a bit rashly (and haven’t we all done this?). I think forgiveness and grace can help us forget the ugly that comes out of us at times…I also think if we choose not to forget, then instead we can choose to give the benefit of the doubt as God doesn’t leave us stagnant in our opinions (thank you Holy Spirit!).

    I think some of what he says rings true, and some is just vomited out of his own issues/wounds/etc. I appreciate that he took it down and is re-writing it more thoughtfully (or so he says).

    And a new narrative…thinking through this…

    • http://www.elizabethesther.com elizabeth

      great point, sarah!

    • http://www.adamshome.blogspot.com erin

      I think you are right Sarah Mae!

  • Stephanie

    This issue is far too complicated to sum up in a quote, but I read this and thought it was a good use of scripture and pesonal experience.
    ” When my husband was killed by Indians, I found myself in some indefinable positions. There wasn’t one missionary man left in Ecuador who spoke the jungle Quichua language. There was no one to teach the young Quichua believers, no one to lead the church, no one but women to carry on where five missionary men had left off.

    The door to the Auca tribe had slammed shut for those men and was, to our astonishment, opened to two women. It didn’t look to me like a woman’s job. But God’s categories are not always ours. I had to shuffle my categories many times during my last eight years of missionary work. Since coming back to the States I’ve done it again. I’ve had a career of sorts, I’ve been a wife and housewife once more, and again I’m a widow.

    But it is the same faithful Lord who calls me by name and never loses track of my goings and reminds me in a still, small voice, “Ye are my witnesses, that ye might know and believe me, and understand that I am he.” (Is. 43:10). There is our primary responsibility: to know him. I can’t be a witness unless I’ve seen something, unless I know what it is I am to testify to. And it is the Lord of the Universe who calls you – you women, you men – and offers you today a place in his program. Your education or lack of it, your tastes and prejudices and fears and status or ambitions, your age or sex or color or height or marital status or income bracket are all things which may be offered to God, after you have presented your bodies as a living sacrifice. And God knows exactly what to do with them. They are not obstacles if you hand them over.” Elisabeth Elliot.

    • http://www.adamshome.blogspot.com erin

      Love Elisabeth Elliot. Great to bring her wisdom to the discussion.

  • http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/ Mara

    Wish I had time to read all 68 comments but have to go.

    I believe it is time to teach our daughters to WRITE THEIR OWN STORIES!

    Men are not qualified to write women’s stories.
    Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. NOT MEN! They are not qualified! They only know what THEY want in women. And God’s ways are so much higher than any man’s ways, no matter how righteous that man thinks he is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7k0a5hYnSI&ob=av2e

  • http://bunny-trails.blogpsot.com Dianne – Bunny Trails

    Wow. I’ve not been a Donald Miller fan in the first place, but this was terrible. I am glad to see that he’s pulled it and apologized. I think that was the right thing to do at that point. But still.

    I’m also glad to see there are people like you and Rachel who are presenting a better perspective. I hope that there aren’t people taking what he wrote on that matter seriously. I also hope that the next time he writes about such things, he would include Jesus in the conversation.

  • http://aperfectlyaverageblog.blogspot.com/ B.Rose

    After reading this post, while watching a children’s movie with my 10 year old brother, I wrote a blog post addressing the topic (as well as the general state of women currently). The link is as follows:
    http://aperfectlyaverageblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/on-f-word-christian-and-hollywood.html
    I’m currently a college student and I’m seeing these same attitudes reflected in my fellow students, both male and female. I honestly don’t think pontificating on the subject causes anyone edification, especially when Donald Miller himself is admittedly not perfect. What I dislike the most about it is that almost every point addressing women has to do with sex, “sluts” or how the woman must be thinking of her husband. However, the post for men addresses things like character primarily. So a woman must revolve herself entirely around her lack of, or existence of, men?