Covert misogyny in ‘progressive’ churches

Today I’m honored to host Stephanie Drury who writes Stuff Christian Culture Likes. Stephanie’s insightful, irreverent and subversive commentary on Christian culture is necessary reading. As Stephanie notes, Christian culture is funny because “it doesn’t have much (if anything) to do with Christ Himself.” I think this piece on covert misogyny is brilliant. I hope you enjoy her insight as much as I have. EE.

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For as inclusive and LGBTQ-friendly as the progressive Church likes to imagine itself, there are still deep, linty pockets of gender bias and old habits that haven’t been broken. And how could they be, if no one has pointed them out?

Actually, I take that back. How could the Church realize its biases if if the people in positions of power won’t entertain the possibility that they have them? The tragic truth is that the people in power do not need to realize their biases if they don’t elect to, and there’s the rub.

Gender bias in Christian culture is so ingrained that it’s difficult to access much of the time. Many women who didn’t take their husband’s last name or promise to obey him (see, progressive!) are just fine with male-pastor-only denominations. Many men who Mr. Mom while their wives work the day job (and to whom many will ascribe feminist tendencies when he’s just acting like a decent human being) can still operate under constraints they haven’t examined. We all do it. It’s getting to the point where you can dig it up and examine it that’s the hard bit.

Straight men in Christian culture simply don’t need to examine the ways in which they are sexist, and this is the most difficult factor in the move towards wholeness. Coming to terms with the truth could make men feel awful about themselves. To even be an unknowing participant in something as egregious as gender bias while living in a culture where civil rights and equality are valued above all else is one of the worst things you can do. Far easier to stay ignorant of it.

I mean, I would want to. People of privilege can’t understand what the margainalized experience day-to-day but when it happens in Christianity in the name of the ultimate gender barrier iconoclast (that would be Jesus), the irony is excruciating.

In a Christian culture whose doctors of theology, board members and published authors are more than 80% male, many men and women still maintain that no significant bias is truly at play. These same people seem proud of the fact that 10% of those in powerful Church roles are women. This is seen by many as a giant stride from where women were a generation ago, but it still means it’s 9 times harder to get into a powerful role as a woman.

And if you’re still having any misgivings as to whether it’s really that difficult for a female voice to be considered in the progressive year of 2012, I would invite you to take ornery heed of a Black Like Me-esque experiment conducted by Jen Theweatt-Bates. While commenting on a male theology blog she found that she was engaged with significantly more respect and curiosity when using a male pseudonym, while her female persona encountered markedly more dismissal. Even her doctorate in philosophy doesn’t appear to lend her much credibility amongst male theologians. There is no subjectivity in this experiment. Please refer to the statistics she recorded which paint a disturbing mathematical portrait of whose voice we value and why.

A common response to this topic by men in the Church is to deny that it is taking place and to tell women they are misreading the men in power. Those men are actually quite generous with their power! They do a lot of work for civil rights! They even have a gay friend! You are misreading them! I get it. There is nothing more difficult than facing the truth about the ways you perpetuate brokenness within the world and especially in the Church you hold dear.

The hardest truths require such painful realizations that many people live their entire lives without facing them. Summoning the curiosity and making the emotional and intellectual space for these realizations is almost preternaturally difficult. Could this mean they are also outrageously worthwhile?

When gender discussions occur on the Facebook page of my blog, men frequently protest the women’s claims that their voice isn’t taken as seriously a male voice. In these cases it always takes the voice of a sympathetic dude to point out where sexism is present in order for the disgruntled men to come around a bit.

The fact that it takes a person of privilege to advocate for the marginalized and engender understanding speaks disgraceful volumes about how those in power choose to manage their unearned privilege. When defending their role, men will often say “I feel that as I try to defend my position I can’t say anything right. I feel that nothing that I say will be considered valid by you. It feels like a vortex and a mindfuck.”

This is the point where a man might finally understand what it is like to have a feminine voice in this culture.

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  • Jawan

    There are actually intelligent women in the church who feel no oppression from the male leadership. When godly men lead, the female enjoys her role to respond.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=11018683 Elizabeth Larson-DiPippo

      So if I don’t enjoy it, does that mean the men aren’t leading in a “godly” way or am I just not an intelligent woman?

    • Scathe meic Beorh

      Respond? Or be the shaft and fletch of the arrow, Jawan, which would be Biblical. The male spirit is the natural arrowhead, but an arrowhead lays buried in the sand without the guiding shaft and feathers, and that is the role of woman in the Body of Christ. Oh, and the fact that you have called this woman unintelligent makes you, at present, unworthy of leading or guiding, depending on your gender. I’d work on that if I were you.

      • Jawan

        I never called anyone unitelligent.

    • http://www.heretichusband.com/ Heretic Husband

      I don’t doubt your intelligence, but a person can be intelligent and still be unaware of oppression.

    • Jawan McGinnis

      I think what is most disheartening is that the replies are so defensive and sound of sarcasm. Of all sinners I am the worst but I am thankful to be part of a church body that is full of grace and male leadership that encourage the women to listen to the voice and God and follow. The subject of female deacons is on the docket for vote in our denomination for the annual general asssembly and it’s not in response to feminism but rather to the Biblical mandate that women can and should serve in leadership roles. Please know that I’m aware of the plank in my own eye but I think that selfishness and pride rule our hearts, therefore causing us to cry “What about me?”.

      • Scathe meic Beorh

        “The subject of female deacons is on the docket for vote in our denomination for the annual general assembly…”

        Yep, that says it all right there. You’re fair, I see. (Sad, you see.)

        • Jawan

          I don’t feel oppressed….we can just agree to disagree.

          • Shems

            I have a gifting in preaching & teaching, when I have done so any authority I will have had would have been from God, not my gender. When I am told by men I can’t be the woman God has created me to be (which is one who preaches & teaches to all genders) I feel oppressed and am being oppressed. Maybe you don’t feel this way because that interpretation of scripture has never challenged either who you believe yourself to be or what God has called you to at any point in your life? When I disagree with you I am not saying you are unintelligent or suggesting others who gold your view are, it is just to say I disagree with you theologically and my experience is very different. I also reject your assumption that a ‘feminist’ and a ‘biblical mandate’ are mutually exclusive. Please believe this comment is posted with respect.

      • Anonymous

        Jawan, the problem, here, is NOT the “disheartening” sarcastic replies you’ve received but the sad assumptions on which you made your original comment. You are being challenged, here, because your comment precisely demonstrates the covert misogyny being pointed out. I mean, what happens when a godly women leads? In my experience? Men REFUSE to respond. :)

        • Jawan

          And men should refuse to respond IF the woman is trying to lead spiritually. This isn’t to say that women don’t have a say or that they don’t have value – men do well to listen to the voices of women for they can have great input and even change the hearts of men. But men have been ordained to lead the body of Christ, not women.

          A woman is not to lead any man spiritually as it is a role that has wonderfully been given to the male.In Genesis 2, Eve is made as a helper for Adam and has authority over her – complementarism. There are many things a woman can only do and some things that she does better than a male. Spiritual leading isn’t one of them.

          We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I know I’m right and you know you’re right.

          • Kristen Rosser

            And if she is inherently unfit for spiritual leadership, what does that say about her spiritual being? That she has a spiritual lack compared to men. In other words, she’s spiritually lacking, lesser– i.e., inferior. And yet complementarians believe she is equal in essence to men. But this is a foundational contradiction in their view. Self-contradictory views have to be false somewhere. Both things can’t be true.

          • Jawan

            She is equal but her ROLE is not to spiritually lead men. We are made differently (in the image of God) for a reason….to glorify the Creator. He didn’t make one gender inferior to the other by any means. The genders compliment each other therefore I rejoice in the role that God gave me….I don’t want to try to take the role given to male nor should males want to take the role given to me (female).

          • http://www.shaneyirene.com/ Shaney Irene

            “Helper.” Complementarians keep on using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

            More helpfully, I’d suggest studying the original Hebrew. The word translated “helper” is also used to describe God as Israel’s helper multiple places elsewhere in the Old Testament. So unless you want to assume that Israel is in authority over God…

          • Jawan

            EZER…I’m very aware what it means. And I don’t mind being labeled a complementarian just as I’m sure those who fall in the other camp don’t mind being labeled an egalitarian. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/08/15/to-my-egalitarian-friends/

          • Cassie

            So she can have a voice as long as she doesn’t speak too loud? You can’t say “women have a voice” and “women cannot lead spiritually” and claim that one in any way makes the other okay.

          • Jawan

            Sure I can…and I did and stand by it. Women can speak as loud as they want….men can listen if they want. It’s the motive of the heart that matters, not the volume.

          • Cassie

            I can’t decide if you’re missing the point or merely proving the point. Saying that women have a voice but “men can listen if they want” says that women have a lesser voice, an optional voice but maybe that’s exactly what you meant to say. It’s a similar argument to people who ask “why isn’t civil union good enough” – the question contains the answer.

          • Jawan

            No one can make anyone do anything….listening is optional for both genders. The point that’s being missed is that no one is holding their own heart accountable. It seems that, instead of serving others, we are consumed with themselves. I have no problem with male authority…and I was raised with a father who was rarely present.

          • Jawan

            “ourselves”

          • Justice

            I have no delicate way to say this, so forgive me if I step too hard on your toes, but it seems to me that the main reasons why you’re OK with this brand of covert misogyny is that it compliments both your daddy issues and your views of women. Please understand that while you may not have had a strong father at home, that doesn’t mean the rest of womenhood wants to have men lording it over us as you seem to desire. And while women are, indeed, different than men, it doesn’t give you or your church license to typecast us into perfect little helpmates for your strong, manly Christian men. I suppose we could hold out olive branches to each other and “agree to disagree” but it feels way more honest and authentic to kindly ask you and your ilk to bite me. Because while its valuable to step into each other’s shoes and understand one another, there comes a point when it’s clear that some change is in order.

    • http://www.ericpazdziora.com/ Eric

      That’s my whole problem with complementarianism in a nutshell: When men insist that they are inherently “leaders” and other people have a “role to respond” (the very definition of privilege, btw), the issue is not actually one of gender roles. The issue is that Jesus told everyone, including men, that we should refuse to have positions of spiritual authority:

      But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave—just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25–28 NKJV)

      “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (Matthew 23:8–12, NIV).

      Jesus leads the body of Christ, and he has wonderfully given men the role of servants. When godly men lead, they should repent for trying to take over Jesus’ job and start serving instead.

      • Jawan

        Just as we elect people to represent our districts and regions in our state capital or in D.C., so should a church elect leaders to lead the Body. I think people have a problem with authority and leadership because the motives of the heart will always lean toward the flesh (self). Jesus doesn’t mean that there can’t be leaders….those that serve ARE the leaders.

        • http://www.ericpazdziora.com/ Eric

          Jesus did not preach “servant leadership,” he preached Servantship, i.e. washing feet. I can see why someone might object to women being authorities, just as Jesus objected to men being authorities. But what’s wrong with women and men serving? As you say, “those that serve are the leaders.”

          Also, do our leaders really have to be like Congressmen? That’s a depressing thought.

          • Jawan

            No, I NEVER said that they had to be like Congressmen. I said that “in the same way we elect”…..it’s the progress of electing that I was making an example of, not “being like them”. Jesus DID NOT object to men being leaders. Eph 5:23…and he was a servant in that he put others before himself, without ever making himself less God.

          • http://www.ericpazdziora.com/ Eric

            If they’re elected by popular vote (verse please?) then at least in that sense they’re “like them,” but I concur that was a bit of a cheap shot on my part. Sorry.

            The rest of what you’re saying isn’t supported by the text. Eph 5:23 specifically says that Christ is the “head of the church,” which I’d think would be a good argument against people having that role. The part about husbands illustrates the point that all Christians should submit to each other (v. 21); for instance, husbands should sacrifice themselves and serve their wives (v. 2, 28). In marriage, this is specifically put in the context of mutuality: “The two will become one flesh,” (v. 31), not “the two will be an authority and a subject.”

            This goes back to my original point, that this brand of theology looks at verses that say “Everybody should submit and serve each other” and draws the conclusion, “You have to submit and serve me!” Godly men don’t demand service; they serve.

          • Jawan

            Yes, I agree….and the group of male leadership in our church do just that…they serve and don’t demand. I think it sad that others in this forum haven’t experienced this true Biblical leadership. The Bible also says that the husband should love his wife as Christ loves the church…which means that he is the leader but she in no way is a doormat. She has valuable input just as he does…..and he would be wise to consider her input. I think that your last statement is the root of the problem….everyone is always out for their best interests and not the interests of others. Believe it or not, men can lead and serve and love and not be demanding. I have proof.

            In regards to a “popular vote”, prayer and the Holy Spirit lead in voting, not man…although we do put the pen to paper.

          • http://www.ericpazdziora.com/ Eric

            Yes, I’ve also seen many cases where good people are able to avoid the problems of a flawed system. I don’t doubt that. I’d observe, though, that to the extent that their attitude is “We’re here to serve you, not to require you to take a ‘responsive role’,” in effect they’re going against what you said in your initial post, however much they might give lip service to it.

            At some point, don’t we have to ask what there is about this doctrine that appeals so much to the Michael Pearls of the world? I worry that dismissing all accounts of abuse with “But that isn’t ‘true biblical leadership’” is a No True Scotsman argument.

          • Jawan

            I can’t speak for the Pearls of this world but I can say that there ARE congregations and churches that are full of grace (mine!). It often angers me when the public at large assume that if someone sides conservative (male leadership with no women holding office) that it must be far right (hyper) and just one of those crazy groups.

            And I disagree that “they are going against what [I] said in my initial post” with lip service. Why is it that I can’t agree and love how the men are leading without being told that they are just being fake and manipulative? Why not see them as sincere and men who are humble, seeking God’s will? Truly, this must be experienced or else it’s just blindness.

          • http://www.ericpazdziora.com/ Eric

            I think you’re reading into my comment things I didn’t suggest. I’m not assuming anything about you or your friends or your church; I’m sure they all are what you say they are. I don’t mean to suggest they’re manipulative, just possibly misguided. In fact I *have* personally experienced godly and healthy pastoral care in a church that held complementarian doctrines. I believe this was a consequence not of those doctrines but of the pastors’ humility despite those doctrines.

            My point is simply that, whatever good qualities the people involved may have, Jesus said things about “leadership” that are at odds with the roles-based model of “I must lead / you must respond.” I quoted some relevant verses in my first comment; there are many more. You’re quite welcome to disagree with that and still be a perfectly humble, compassionate Christian– I’m just not convinced that it necessarily correlates with “It is not to be so among you.”

          • Jawan

            What it boils down to is definition (not semantics). I wouldn’t say they are misguided, although we (humans) are severely depraved and make many mistakes in leadership! I could say the same about those that disagree with me…that they are misguided.

            Again, there are many instances where men (even my husband) agree that a woman makes a better point, gives better advice, suggests a clearer point and even changes his mind – with great humility. There’s never any contention about who won the contest, who had the better input, etc….it’s about seeing the Body of Christ as a whole and working together, not gender against gender.

            I stand firm in that I believe men should lead women but I’ll never say that this means they are holding harsh authoritative rule over our heads. True leadership is all that love is – 1 Cor 13:4-6. It would be sin on the man’s part to never consider the woman’s opinion, ask what she thinks, or even think he’ll never change his mind based upon her input.

            http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/manhood-and-womanhood-conflict-and-confusion-after-the-fall

            I appreciate your tone in our conversation…this is how disagreements are supposed to take place.

  • TheresaEH

    In the first 2 paragraphs you mention “church”….WHICH church do you mean? The Roman Catholic church, or one of the 33,000 (and growing #) independant protestant christian churchs?

    • KatR

      I’m fairly sure “progressive” and “LGBTQ-friendly” aren’t labels that the roman catholic church likes to claim, so I’m guessing she’s talking about (some of the) ever splitting Independent Protestant Christian Churches.

      • TheresaEH

        KatR,,,,you have missed my point!!!
        .

  • Scathe meic Beorh

    There are Christian men such as myself who see and treat women as equals, as did Jesus, but if these men are also such as myself, they refuse to darken the door of any church. Ever. Because of many of the reasons described in the above article. There’s more of Jesus out here than there is in there, and there always has been.

  • Nancy

    EE, just last week, your blog included an excellent example of gender bias. When only 5 (FIVE!) of the “top 100 ministry blogs” are written by women, it says that many gifted female thinkers and writers are being discounted and left out of “serious” theological categories.

  • fancystephanie

    Growing up in an independent fundamental Baptist church, I did experience a good deal of oppression. My husband and I are now ELCS Lutheran, and we actually have a female assistant pastor!! My husband, however, refuses to go to a church where a woman is the senior pastor (assistant is okay). I don’t pretend to understand the reasoning behind that, or any misogyny at all.

  • Anonymous

    I appreciate the reality that there is more than enough “crap” in church organizations to fuel blogs and social media for generations to come. And, I do believe these kinds of discussions serve a healthy purpose. But, I am also frustrated with “there is lots of dirt in that mountain” approach in so many blogs. Yes. for sure, that mountain is full of dirt. What we need is people who can show us how to find and mine the gold.

    • Anonymous

      We need BOTH. You can’t find a way to mine the gold until you’ve dug through a lot of dirt. :) These exercises are NOT mutually exclusive. By mining the dirt, you really ARE mining for gold. It’s the not doing anything at ALL which should frustrate you. :)

      • Anonymous

        Yes, I know it’s both. That’s why I started with that statement. What frustrates me is that fact that it’s not typically a matter of doing nothing. Both sides of the issue are both pointing nearly exclusively on the dirt about each other. Constructive solution voices are a big need as well. Like I already said, I started following your posts because i appreciate what you have to say. I was just making a personal observation on the climate, in general, that is frustrating to me.

  • Lindsey

    This post makes me sad. My we all be gracious to one another on this journey. Snarky poking doesn’t help.

    • Anonymous

      Lindsey, I so totally agree. We all have different experiences on the same issues that are sacred to us. So many posts and comments are just as much a reaction to our personal “still festering wounds” as they are constructive voices on the journey.

  • Anonymous

    Having done some learning and thinking about how the indigenous people in my country have been – and still are, to a large extent – treated as second-class citizens, I have realised how difficult it is for the majority (privileged) to get their heads around what the minority (marginalised) are going on about. I am white, as were 90% of my classmates at the time we were learning about this, and we were all quite sure that the indigenous people of our country were NOT currently treated any differently than white people, and were very indignant at suggestions that we could, possibly, be part of the problem. It wasn’t until a few of our indigenous classmates spoke up about some of theirs and their families experiences that most of us realised maybe, just maybe… we might be wrong.
    When you are the one in the privileged position, it is very difficult to see it – it can be very difficult to get to a point of even realising that you do have privilege in some area. When you have never experienced life without that privilege, you are pretty much blinded to the fact that it exists.
    My point is that men have always had this privileged position. That doesn’t make them bad or nasty – it just is.

    Should it be that way? NO!
    But it can be very, very difficult for them to understand what women – the marginalised – are going on about, and they’re not necessarily trying to be obstructive or dismissive. Paradigm shifts are hard work, and can take some time to happen.
    Keep working for change, but be patient with those who need to change – we all have our blind spots, and will more than likely need grace from others in our own areas of privilege.

  • Sister Liz Colver

    woot woot!! preach it, sister! SUCH a valuable piece to share, and I’m grateful for it. My husband and I named our son Shepherd, for many reasons, but one major reason is so that he can learn to recognize all the plethora of unearned privileges he will walk this earth with, and learn to use them to benefit the less or under-privileged. He’s only 18mo, so here’s hoping and praying it works! ;-)

  • Innocent Bystander

    What I don’t understand is why Jesus said that “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all” (Mk 9:35) and the Bible says of him that “even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mk 10:45). St. Therese of Lisieux was bothered by the sexism in the Church of her day (she visited many churches in Rome that threatened her with excommunication if she entered because she was a woman), and her answer was that although it was wrong it puts women a step closer than men to following Jesus. Just to say that maybe the answer isn’t outrage, but Jesus.

    • Maria Perrine

      Innocent,
      You have spoken more truth here than all the thousands of words written in these comments before yours. The irony of this whole conversation is astounding. It would be almost amusing if were not firstly so very convicting.

  • Gayle

    Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for posting this. I teach at a Christian school that is attached to a “progressive” church. (I attend church elsewhere.) I am constantly trying to battle the sexist ideas that leak over into my classroom. It is difficult to do this without appearing to undermine the authorities in my school, who are all intimately connected with the church. Last year, I had a go-nowhere conversation with another teacher who was horrified that I had said something about God the Father not having an actual gender. (I talked about Hebrew language as a gendered language, and he didn’t understand what I was trying to say.) He just kept repeating that God was male, and that He had created men and women to be different, and that “men can’t be mothers,” which somehow proved to him that all of our complicated gender roles in the Church were sanctioned by biological functions that were predetermined by a determinedly, biologically male God. Just the other day, I told a little girl that, yes, women COULD someday be Presidents of the United States, and that that was okay. This church likes to play rock music and dress up its leaders in polo shirts on Sundays. They drink coffee during the service and talk a lot about sex in order to be edgy. But sometimes, I feel like I’m teaching in 1885. This excerpt gives me hope that we can at least bring these conversations into the open–that we can give air to our concerns, and that there are people who will listen.

  • Beth

    I would be interested in reading an article by you about
    misogyny and the Catholic Church. At CCD the Trinity was shown by pictures. God the Father was pictured as an old man with a beard. When I picked up my young daughter and asked her how class went she said, “God is not a man” Yes that is true God is not a man. She was beside herself that they pictured God as an old man with a beard. I agreed with her.

    I recently listed to 3 well known Catholic bloggers talk about women and their role in the church. They talked a great deal about how women are not called to be priests and for women who want to be ordained it is all about them seeking power. As if that has nothing to do with it for men? Do we really think it is all about service for men and power for women? Anyway, where is the conversation on ordaining women to the Diaconate in the Catholic Church? Or having women involved in decision making roles in non-ordained positions? I am certain if women were more involved the sex abuse scandal would not have been as large as it was. Women have a mother’s intuition. They would not have passed abusers on to different parishes.

    Men and women both have weaknesses and strengths. That is why churches need both of them in leadership to work together. As I look out at all the Cardinals now in Rome I do not agree that this is the ideal structure of leadership God desires for the church. I don’t have all the answers but at this point in my life I do have a lot of questions. I am hoping I don’t get attacked or reprimanded for saying that. I really just need to be able to honestly express where I am at without being told I am not a “true” Catholic. So thanks in advance to all the readers for taking the time to listen to me and not reprimand me.

    • Mel

      Thanks for your comment. I’m Catholic, and struggle with the role and place of women in the church.