A conversation with Frank Schaeffer, author of "Crazy for God"

 Frank Schaeffer has earned a reputation as an outspoken critic of The Religious Right, a group he says is "fueled by an adrenaline of hysteria." 

But when Frank agreed to chat with me about his book "Crazy for God: how I grew up as one of The Elect, helped found The Religious Right, and lived to take it all (or almost all) of it back," I was inspired by his compelling, thoughtful insight into the evangelical mindset and the steps that brought about the politicization of an entire bloc of Christian voters. I was particularly curious about the process that led Frank to abandon the religious convictions of his famous evangelical father, Dr. Francis Schaeffer, and how his journey away from what he calls "jingoistic, cult-of-personality Christianity" has shaped his faith.

An Open-Hearted Childhood

Frank was raised in a loving, fundamentalist missionary home by parents who were sincere in their love for God and other people. Like most fundamentalists, there were strict rules about no cursing, no TV, no card games. But the Schaeffers demonstrated their love and open-hearted approach to faith by welcoming backpackers, hikers, artists, musicians and wanderers of all sorts into their Switzerland home. It was there, in L'Abri Fellowship, that Dr. Francis Schaeffer began his lectures on art, culture, literature and Christian thought. And then, he became a best-selling author.

"Things changed after that," Frank said. "Suddenly we were packing out auditoriums with our video seminars like How Should We Then Live?" Dr. Schaeffer began urging the post Billy Graham generation that true service for Jesus Christ meant political action. It was a Christian's duty to vote according to, what Frank called, "the moral litmus test" in order to prevent America from a socialistic takeover. 

In Bed With Hysterics

The resulting evangelical political fervor caught the attention of politicians. Soon Dr. Schaeffer was being flown around on private jets and invited to private meetings with senators and the Bush family. Politicians wanted Schaeffer's counsel on how to energize what had historically been an apathetic voting bloc: the evangelical, faith-based voter. 

Right around the same time, Hal Lindsey (a visitor to Schaeffer's L'Abri home) published his lightening rod bestseller Late, Great Planet Earth. Dr. Francis Schaeffer didn't adhere to Lindsey's eschatology, but it was too late: The Religious Right had provided a platform for the Apocalypse. And any other fear-based rhetoric that would energize voters. 

"It was like one day you woke up and realized you were in bed with hysterics," Frank chuckled. "We'd gone from my Dad warning that Roe v. Wade would lead to a liberal takeover of the Supreme Court to Jerry Falwell telling me personally that if he saw his dogs doing what gays do, he'd shoot them." 

Frank says his dad refused to join Anita Bryant's crusade to ban gay teachers from public schools. "Anita left in quite a huff," he said. "But my Dad wasn't interested in jumping on her bandwagon. In practice, he was open-hearted and non-judgmental about gays, atheists and other non-believers." It seemed as if The Religious Right was trying to pigeon-hole Dr. Schaeffer's message. No longer was it about serving Jesus Christ in politics. It was about serving Jesus Christ by voting Republican.

The End is Near because Obama is a Socialist

Franks sees parallels between The-End-Is-Near alarmism of the late 70's and 80's to the modern Obama-Is-A-Socialist rallying cry. "They're trading in the same currency of fear," Frank says. "Except it's a secularized version. It's no longer about serving Jesus. It's about preserving capitalism. Glenn Beck is James Dobson warmed over and re-packaged for cable television."

The problem is that this kind of rhetoric has what Frank calls, "the logical, next step." Either you pack up your family and high-tail it to the country where you try to survive the imminent Apocalypse (and by the way, both Frank and I know folks who have done this). Or you pick up a loaded gun and go after the President. This is the scenario that most troubles Frank. "Most of these radical groups are small enough that they won't bring down the United States," he says. "But they can destroy individual lives. All it takes is one wing-nut to put the rest of us in a world of trouble for a very long time."

I have to admit that this is the scenario that scares me the most, too. Radical fundamentalists are a minority population. But I've read enough hyper-patriarchal/fundamentalist blogs to agree with Frank that some of these folks are "rooting for Armageddon."

Patience with God 

When I asked Frank about where he is now with his faith, he described it as a journey. He says he's moved away from the sermon-based, pastor-centric model of Christianity. He's wary of the churches that spring up because of one fantastic, eloquent personality. "It's a cult-of-personality," he comments. "And what happens when he dies? When my Dad died, L'Abri Fellowship declined. There was infighting and disagreements." 

In some ways, it seems a sermon-based, pastor-centric model is not sustainable. "People say 'come hear my pastor preach what the Bible says,'" Frank observes. "But what they really mean is 'come hear what my pastor says it says.'" In those churches, Frank says "salvation is through adhering to the same set of beliefs rather than a human journey toward character change." 

This faith journey was the inspiration for his new book, Patience With God: Faith for People Who Don't Like Religion (or atheism). Frank says he is drawn to the ancient traditions of liturgy and sacrament. There is something timeless about these things, an acceptance that we are "human beings on a human journey. And that is OK." 

I couldn't agree more.

Up next on my reading list: Patience with God: Faith for People Who Don't Like Religion (or atheism).

Thank you, Frank, for speaking with me. It was a great pleasure.

Comments

[terry@breathing grace]

I actually posted myself recently about the problem of Christians being political, and following the likes of, yes, Glenn Beck. I was able to talk about it because I was, myself, beginning to get sucked in. In fact, I was sucked in but thank God, He showed me the error of my ways.

I will say this about the end being near: The truth is that the end is near. It grows nearer with every successive generation. The political climate in our country is simply and outward impression of mankind's increasing inward sinfulness, searching, and instability.

The church needs to turn return to being poltically apathetic and turn our eyes toward more eternal and kingdom concerns. It's one thing to vote your conscience. This is a good thing. It's quite another to make the horrible estimation that we can save the world by getting others to vote our conscience, too.

[Kathleen@so much to say, so little time]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing--now I have another book to put on my to-read list.

[Kathleen@so much to say, so little time]

I posted my comment before reading Terry's--I agree wtih you about voting conscience. The trouble I find is that there isn't a party--often not even a candidate--who really lines up with my conscience. I can vote anti-abortion or anti-death penalty. I can vote pro-traditional marriage or pro-environment. But not both. I also think that the "hysteria" has led to people forgetting that no matter who we elect, it's not going to be perfect, and it's not going to bring about the Kingdom. We are far more effective if we work in our communities, try to plant seeds of the Kingdom in our home and our neighborhood and our town.

[Michelle aka Catholic Lady]

Interesting post and thank you so much for sharing. I agree with Kathleen....there is never a politician that lines up with what I believe up and down the line. It's just impossible.

[Jonathan "Siggy" Sigmon]

Wow. That was extremely well written and a joy to read that you and Frank are standing up for the Kingdom of God rather than a liberal or conservative agenda. I grew up believing that it was impossible to be a Democrat and be a Christian, but have since realized that Jesus is not a Republican. The worship of end times is such a strange thing to me as well. I think everyone is fascinated by the unknown (whether End Times or God in general), but when we "root for Armageddon", things become really weird, really fast.

Anyways, this was my first time to your blog and I really enjoy your writings. You have a gift.

[Sod1]

As a preachers kid I understand Frank Schaeffer loud & clear. As one who is coping with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, I see first-hand how Christians have blocked science since 2000 and before over Roe v. Wade. Stem Cell research breakthroughs will soon bring a new meaning to "Sanctity of Life" for everyone.

[mpt]

Amazing interview, friend! Love it.

[mary bailey]

This was a well-written and comprehensive post, Elizabeth. Thanks to both you and Frank for sharing. My question is: Can we read Frank's books exclusive of his dad's or will reading his dad's help illuminate his?

[Jo@Mylestones]

Enjoyed your recap of the interview. Very intriguing--in many ways putting words to some of my frustration with the "Christian" right movement. Now I need to add both books to my reading list! (I also want to join in on the book club, but am having commitment issues. So maybe I'll just follow along as a lurker). :-)

[Holly]

That was very good, E. Is there more? (I ask, hopefully. It's way too short.) :)

[Janet Oberholtzer]

Nice ... enjoyed this and will also be reading his book now.

[Susanne Barrett]

Am I correct in thinking that Frank Schaeffer converted to Eastern Orthodoxy?

I totally agree with his critique of the "cult of personality" and the sermon-based, pastor-centric evangelical view. Yes, I attend an evangelical church, but for the past five years I've also attended a conservative Anglican Church as well, and what I enjoy most is that the Anglican services focus on Communion, not on the sermon (which is 10-15 minutes long rather than the 45 minutes of our evangelical church).

In fact, the priest does a short kids' sermon (3-5 minutes) on Friday mornings for my family (and even built a chapel for us off his garage so we could continue attending when they gave up their church building to the diocese), and he was telling them that his cassock and chasuble are there to "hide the priest so that you can only see Jesus." Aaaah, so very different from the pastor-centric churches that surround me in Southern California!

Great interview! Very illuminating.

[50s Housewife]

I haven't read any of Frank Schaeffer's books except Keeping Faith which I loved, loved, loved. It was a huge help to me when my sons were in bootcamp and I would highly recommend it. I'll see if I can find Crazy for God at my library.

By the way, I would call myself a "non-hysterical Christian". I'm not interested in Armageddon. :)

[Ashleigh (Heart and Home)]

I confess I don't know much about the Schaeffer family other than the names of books both men have written, but I love THIS. I, too, can't get far enough away from pastor worship and the churches, people and mentalities that promote it. I do think there are some evangelical-style churches that discourage pastor worship and do exalt Christ. They can just be harder to find.

That last section hits the nail on the head for so many of the conservative/radical groups. The ones that can be heard saying, "Oh, well, those other people SAY they're Christians but... (hushed voice) they drink. And they go to movies. And they wear pants." You know, all the things I grew up saying. A complete maligning of the scriptures, salvation and God himself.

Also, all those people who high-tail it to the country? Yeah... it doesn't work.

[Luke Gillespie]

Thank you, Elizabeth and Frank, for a wonderful interview. Faith is, indeed, a journey. I remember hearing a baptist seminary professor years ago saying that "being" a christian must include the notion that one is on a spiritual journey, a process, of always "becoming" a christian. He meditated on honest questions rather than stale answers. One never really "arrives," but is always arriving. We don't start from a finished line. If we did, we would probably be tempted to abandon the growth and maturity that we need daily. As Frank says, we are "human beings on a human journey."

[Pat]

I just started his book after seeing it on your list, Elizabeth, and I highly recommend it. I have the Kindle version. :)
Thanks for sharing.

[Deborah L]

Am I the only one who thinks Mr. Schaeffer's response to "where he is now with his faith" a touch obscure? He seems to be saying that salvation is "a human journey toward character change". Clarification of this statement with scripture would be much appreciated. I'm just not grasping it. Anyone?

[walking in the word]

So is our concrete solution that we should all join liturgically based churches, not vote and not wait for the Blessed Hope that we have in Christ Jesus? I'm not sure that the type of church experience is the problem as much as the type of person. Are they following God and obeying His Word or are they following a person or group? Voting Republican (or Democrat for that matter) isn't the problem as much as not living what we say we believe. I guess I've never met anyone who is truly waiting for the Apocolypse, but I have met many who are looking forward to Heaven, so I'll leave that to others to debate.

Yes, Deborah, I found Mr. Schaeffer's response obscure as well.

[Elizabeth Esther]

Deborah: I can appreciate your perspective. I think Frank's remarks were more a commentary on a Christian experience that requires everyone to point to a definitive moment when they were "saved;" whereas for someone like myself who was born into a Christian family and grew up surrounded by God's Word and church--the process was more like the lights coming on slowly. In that sense, my journey toward God was akin to a dimmer switch--slowly illuminating my consciousness. But, of course, others experience the light being flicked on at full force. My thought is that Frank is encouraging us to accept that folks come to faith in Christ in different ways--and that is what he called a journey.

Walking in the word: Thank you for your thoughts. Neither Frank nor I were attempting to provide a "concrete solution" to anything. In fact, I think trying to provide "concrete solutions" is what got The Religious Right into trouble in the first place. And I fully agree with you that the problem is folks not living what we say we believe--but then again, our inability to live up to our own ideals is precisely why the goal shouldn't be political or social revolution. In other words, salvation isn't something that can be mandated by political action committees. :)

[Deborah L]

Elizabeth, I appreciate your response. I still have to disagree with his statement. "Salvation" happens the moment one confesses to Jesus Christ that he/she is a sinner, and accepts Him as his/her Lord and Saviour. That is not a "journey", is it? The Christian life thereafter is a journey, as one grows and learns. One may experience a journey TOWARDS salvation, but, thanks to God, salvation happens in an instant. I guess I am more than a little leary hearing someone describe salvation as something other than it is - my Bible begs to differ. :)

[Civilla]

Yes, Deborah, salvation IS the moment one accepts Jesus as his/her savior. That is scriptural. I'm wary of Frank Schaeffer's description of "the journey" because it sounds like "there are many roads to God" (maybe he doesn't mean that), which is false teaching.

For me, it was a journey to salvation, with God leading me, then I was saved in an instant when I gave my life to Christ and received him as my savior, and of course, it has been a journey since then.

The sacramentalism is what I have a real problem with. It is not New Testament. It can serve to keep God at arm's length while giving the impression or illusion that He is near because we are touching or feeling outward things.

Of course, personality-cult religion is wrong, too. These people can take the place of God and that is idolatry.

I am alarmed, too, at people who like the fact that there is not much in the way of a sermon in their churches, as sacraments are elevated. Woe to us if we diminish the preaching of the Word. The Bible is what grounds us and it is the thing by which we measure everything.

The way church furniture is arranged tells a lot. The communion altar is at the center and elevated above everything, and the pulpit is over to the side: sacrament over Word.

The pulpit is central and elevated and the communion table is down below or over to the side: Word over sacrament.

I'll take Word over sacrament any day.

[julie]

Interesting. I think the word "fundamentalist" would be more accurate if it was replaced with "evangelical." I do not believe that Francis Shaffer was a fundamentalist, but was more evangelical in his approach. The Shaffers were some of the most thoughtful and intellectual people of their time. He was the FIRST to point out the flaws with abortion. Yes, legislating morality is difficult, but isn't that what we do when we say murder, rape, and stealing is wrong? The salvation part is God's work alone. When saved, we want to follow his law and pray that others will see Him as well. Problem comes when we try to attach extra biblical laws (much of fundamentalism) to Christianity. Franky says he finds meaning to life in liturgy and sacrament. Personally, I am not going to find truth in liturgy and sacrament only. I will find it in scripture, faith, grace, glory to God alone, and the better I know how to understand these (with the assistance with a solid Bible preaching pastor and study) the better I will be able to live in a fallen world.

[Civilla]

My first comment seems to have been eaten.

My husband and I loved Francis and Edith Schaeffer's books, and loved reading about their ministry.

It is very sad that others USED them to further their political agenda, and sad that they allowed themselves to be used, and got distracted from their first love: preaching the Gospel and restoring young Christian's (and other people's) confidence in the Bible as God's fully-inspired Word.

I have also bought and read Frank Jr.'s older books and enjoyed them somewhat. I have also read and seen interviews of Frank Jr., and have read excerpts of his recent novels. Unfortunately, I detect a bad attitude in all of his writings and interviews, which I don't like. Also, in the excerpts of his newer books, I noticed a lot of bad language. Why was this necessary?

While he hit the nail right on the head about so much of evangelicalism's emphasis (these days) more on voting Republican than serving Jesus, and on the sin of personality cults, which is idolatry, I don't see liturgy and sacraments as the antidote for this.

I grew up a Roman Catholic and went to school with the nuns. Sacraments, rituals, ceremonies, rules, sacramentals, etc., can sometimes be a substitute for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, while at the same time, keeping Christ at arm's length.

They, too, can be sensual and fleshly, even becoming fetishes if we need them to make us feel close to God (personality cults can be the same thing.)

Christianity is a religious land-mine out there today, with every aberrant doctrine being preached all at the same time. It is a perilous time, spiritually, and a time to get personally close to God, without sacraments or cult-personalities, and to get grounded in God's Word.

Again, ritualized religion with sacraments and sacramentals is not the antidote to the problem Frank Schaeffer correctly describes. A true, personal relationship with Christ is, and we don't need ritualized religion OR cult-personalities to get us to Him.

[Elizabeth Esther]

Civilla: both your comments have published. Thanks for your input.

I did delete a comment from another reader because intentionally missing the point and questioning the legitimacy of my salvation or Frank's salvation does not contribute respectfully to the dialogue.

[Deborah L]

Civilla - an emphatic YES to your comments. How well you articulate!

[julie]

You have Civilla (a great name) under my name, which is Julie. I do like Julie's comment though! I am the one that clarifies evangelicalism and fundamentalism. I only posted that comment. Is the "Julie" listed under the correct name?

[Ashleigh (Heart and Home)]

You know, I think an important point to keep in mind is that we all come to ideas, such as the ones Frank Schaeffer suggests here, from our own background. For me, EE, Frank Jr. and many others, we come from a place where we have seen lives lived according to man-made rules and regulations (all in the name of standards and spirituality) just as much as those coming from Catholicism or Orthodoxy have. The crucial bit here is that anyone can take the "traditions" of man and make of them a poor, sorry substitute for intimacy with Christ. Some point to specific styles of worship as the culprit, but I personally believe that voids personal responsibility for our own walk with God. It happens just as much on both sides of the coin. Some have seen it in the Catholic and Orthodox churches... I've seen it time and time again in evangelical and fundamentalist churches. In fact, I'd venture to say it can be a certain kind of damaging in these churches because it's less expected and the Pharisaical self-righteousness produces a blindness that can be extremely difficult to conquer. But once again, that's just my experience.

I don't see Mr. Schaeffer's comments on Christianity being a journey as a way of saying there are many paths to God. Perhaps that is what he meant--I don't claim to agree with everything he says here or elsewhere--but I didn't read it that way. I know that God does lead us on journeys of faith to show us more of himself.

We do a disservice to Christians and Christianity when we limit God beyond what his Word says and box Him up into something that makes us feel good--whether it be sacraments or soul-winning. A personal, deep, abiding relationship with him is what he desires, and we, out of fear and wanting certainty, try to tell him and other people HOW to do that. He gives us the basics, and yet we complicate it. Loving him and loving those he loves are the greatest commandments. Maybe we should focus on getting those ones right, first?

Also, as a side note, communion is an important ordinance established by Christ... I don't believe it competes with the Word, regardless of where the table sits. : )

[Elizabeth Esther]

Julie: the name of the commenter follows the comment. Civilla commented and then you commented. Then Civilla commented again. Sometimes the layout just looks confusing. :) Thanks for your input.

Ashleigh: lovely. thank you.

[Civilla]

I understand what some here are saying: our backgrounds have a part to play in our spiritual journeys.

If you have been abused by the church of your childhood, you would definitely react to that. I have read your post on that, Elizabeth Esther, and don't doubt a word of it. That would definitely affect a person.

Here's someplace I don't even want to go -- "Are many of us reacting or even over-reacting to our spiritual backgrounds when we move to other churches or faiths?" But, we have to look at it: our backgrounds DO figure into this subject.

Roman Catholicism did not do much for me. Southern Fundamentalism did. But then I moved from Southern Fundamentalism (where we had been somewhat abused, since the particular group was a borderline cult) to Pentecostalism during the Charismatic Movement. The Pentecostals got, in my opinion, kind of nutty with the Word of Faith Movement coming up and carrying it away, so then we were off to main-line denominational churches, pastoring them while my husband was still ordained with a Pentecostal denomination.

We've recently (that is, my husband and I) come back to Southern Fundamentalism!!! I must confess, I felt the lure back to Roman Catholicism, I think due to nostalgia and due to disillusionment with all the denominations/fellowships I have been in since leaving the Catholic church years ago.

People will always disillusion you, so we do need to stay from worshiping personalities or denominations.

And, there is a mass-exodus back to the Roman Catholic church among baby-boomers like me who left years ago. But, I could not turn my back on the Bible as the final authority, so I did not go back, in the end. I did not just want nostalgic emotionalism, which it would have been for me.

So, my husband and I now consider ourselves to be Fundamentalist Pentecostals, but we minister independently, although he is still ordained with an independent Pentecostal group, and he now pastors a Baptist church. We don't know what the future holds for us spiritually.

We are not, however, ecumenists, although we have really gotten around a lot. The ecumenical movement has downplayed God's Word. We remain sectarian-oriented, as Fundamentalist Pentecostals. We minister where God leads, even if it is not in a Bible-believing church or denomination, not to receive from them, but to lead in a pastoral/teaching capacity, emphasizing God's Word, the Bible, as the final authority, because that is where we are at now.

So, we must seem all mixed up, but you must think for yourself, not let your past think for you, not over-react to it, not let denominations think for you. Your relationship with Jesus Christ must be very personal, as lined up with His Word.

God puts us in strange places sometimes, but we must never lose hold of His Word as the final authority.

This was a most interesting post. Thanks for sharing it.

[Ashleigh (Heart and Home)]

Love your thoughts, Civilla, and the spirit with which you share them. I agree... and admit that I'm one mixed up girl these days, still struggling daily against being a swinging pendulum. I appreciated that last comment!

[Elizabeth Esther]

You're welcome, Civilla. Thank you for sharing your own faith journey with us. I appreciate your willingness to share openly and respectfully. This is the kind of dialogue I try to encourage on my blog--and I appreciate everyone who here who has been able to keep it civil. Thank you.

[Holly]

It is interesting to me that as evangelicals we (and I say we because it is my background...) tend to dismiss a person's story just because we don't like it, because it doesn't jive with our own experiences. I say, read the book, hear what Frank has to say about growing up at L'Abri and about how he was integral to founding the religious right, and then form opinions. We tend to demonize people, rather than hearing them. We discount them based upon a brief interview, too, rather than hearing the entire story.

As for people waiting for the apocalypse? Oh, boy...I am surrounded in real life by people who very much believe this way. It's like they can't WAIT for God's wrath to be poured out upon us. They buy guns, gold and are stocking up for the end times. They buy passports to transport their family out of the country. (To flee where, I am unsure.) It seems they are hoping for something really horrible to happen. My mother tells me once a week that she is SURE Obama is the Antichrist. I am wondering when she thinks he will make his move....She is stocking up on shampoo for the days when times get hard. (I promise this is true.)

Along these same lines, you know, it is fascinating but apparently the ONLY thing that can save us from the last days is talk radio and hard right policies. We NEED them. Jesus doesn't save us, our own hardwork and ideologies do.

I'm a faithful daughter. I listen, I love, I serve. But I don't agree, neither in theory nor in where the logical progression of this kind of thinking takes us.

Interesting times.

[Luke Gillespie]

Holly: Very well put. I highly encourage people to read Frank's "Crazy for God" first, hear what he has to say and then form opinions.

Growing up in Japan as a missionary kid myself (born there in 1957), I can relate to so much of what Frank says. My southern baptist parents were suspicious of the "religious right" and taught that faith was a matter of the heart (1 Samuel 16:7b, "the Lord sees not as man sees; man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart"), as did a number of other missionaries I knew, but every time we would return to the States on furlough, we could see the trend toward a more rigid and even ruthless fundamentalistic attitude, including the eventual "takeover" of seminary staff and faculty. I'm glad my parents didn't live to see such a brutal development. It was as if one had to be a right-wing republican (politically and socially) to be considered a good christian. If you didn't agree with every single point in the right-wing political agenda (note that I did not say "spiritual" agenda), you were not only a liberal (as if that was an "evil" thing to be), but you were possibly not even a "true" christian.

For anyone interested, I highly recommend the book called "The Fundamentalist Takeover in the Southern Baptist Convention: A Brief History" (1999, Impact Media) written by Robison James and Gary Leazer with James Shoopman. (Robison James also edited an insightful book called "The Unfettered Word: Southern Baptists Confront the Authority-Inerrancy Question" in 1987.)

My faith is at the core of my being, but, at the risk of sounding too critical and pious myself, this whole politically charged extreme fundamentalism that has taken over a number of denominations in the last 30+ years is, to me, a shameful attack against the christian faith. If Jesus were alive today, he would surly be condemning such hypocrisy, as he did the Pharisees, and be turning the tables of these extreme fundamentalist folks who maintain right-wing political and social agendas as prerequisites for faith and have completely ignored, or forgotten about, the inclusive biblical message of love.

[Civilla]

I would still like to read Frank Schaeffer's book.

[Luke Gillespie]

May I add another book that may interest readers here? It's called "Ungodly Women: Gender and the First Wave of American Fundamentalism" by Betty A. DeBerg (1990, Augsburg/Fortress; 2000, Mercer Univ Press). The author insightfully shares how gender and the roles of women and men in American society and families have been crucial in the formation and development of the fundamentalist movement from its beginnings a century ago. I highly recommend it.

[dawnhopesmith@yahoo.com]

Great posting. Very excited you got to speak with him, and very interesting to see what his views are.

[MInTheGap]

I think that one of the biggest problems with American Christianity is that we believe that what happens here is somehow more important than the rest of the world. We judge how soon the Lord's return is based on events in America. We somehow believe that God has picked this nation as it's chosen, and that if we just try hard enough it'll be the Christian nation it should be.

We forget our history-- that even the Roman Empire was once Christian in name and it fell. There's nothing protecting this nation from following in Rome's footsteps, and if/when it does, that does not mean that God's done with His redemptive work here.

I find nowhere in Scripture the command to be involved in politics. I don't find any reference to representative government, and while I believe that we owe a civic duty to our country, I also believe that the Christian message is a "grass-roots" message that was to start person to person and start in the heart, not be imposed from above.

So I'm with him there.

I'm not so sure I'm with him in the traditional church. For some time I've pondered about how linked a body can be to its pastor. The church where I am attending has asked its pastor to find another church, not for any misconduct (that I have seen) but that they believe that they may have come too dependent on him instead of Christ-- and I think this is healthy.

The truth is, God gave Pastors and Teachers for the building of the body. It's Scripture. To all of a sudden say that we can do it alone, and have our own journeys apart from the aids that God has given seems dangerous. That God is seen bringing people with different gifts to different local bodies is evident in Scripture.

What I fear is that in this "anti-establishment" mindset, they commit the opposite error of those that become personality-focused, and yet they also believe that they are the only right.